How many ways did I butcher KT?

[Michael Davis]

"Remember that I'm getting 11:1 immediate to call the turn with the possibility that he's raising for a free showdown."

You pretty much need to leave raising the turn for a free showdown out of the potential arsenal of a live player until you see them pull it off.

-Michael

[Smarty]

Call the river as played. Raising the flop would make the rest of the hand easier.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]

Button: never played with him before, and he's been involved in the fewest pots at the table. He's older, quiet, and conservative, and my read is ROCK tight, reserving the option to change once I see more of him. However, the only major pot I've seen him show down is when he raised PF and got involved in some raising and betting and then calling on a board of (773)(x)(x) against the BB who held 73. Rocky turned over AA and shrugged.

[/ QUOTE ]

the picture you paint indicates you are drawing dead pretty often on the turn - unless you're leaving something cool out in the bolded part.

[alphanumerics]

Button: and my read is ROCK tight,

Well, the button finally plays a pot, and limps behind me.


[/ QUOTE ]

i gotta start posting here, im gonna get back into this game, so doesnt the first line here say it all? if youre gonna bet that turn, and get raised by the tightest guy at the table, doesnt that define his hand that we are just about dead? with that many limpers, most of the players ive played with, albeit foxwoods, they will not raise much with that many limpers. then when he calls behind on the flop,i think hes waiting to see if another heart peels off, with the intention of calling down if the flush hits. you said nothing about his aggr. just that he was tight. im seeing possibly JJ or 55 here, but KJ doesnt seem too far off, but being that the guy is as tight as you say, i dont think 11-1 is going to matter. if hes raising the turn, hes betting the river so i dont see a free showdown here, ever.

[Guruman]

I think you have to raise the flop, as SB could be bluffing a draw there and will just check to you on the turn regardless of the action. That seems to be the critical point where the hand went afoul.

also, maybe this is a live play thing but I can't remember the last time I saw a rock make a free showdown raise with middle pair on the turn. Its true that he should raise a wide range there to shut out the blinds once you bet into him, but that should be good for both of you. I'd look him up or fold the turn.

[thirddan]

preflop: i think its fine...meh whatever...
flop: my norm is to raise, but i think calling is fine, in a big pot like this getting button to fold QJs is fine...
turn: i would muck this...the only hand you are really drawing ive against from a ROCK is AK and he most likely raises the flop with it, i suppose we are drawing live against 75s but that might not be in buttons range here...i think you are gonna get shown JJ/77/KJ here way too often to profitably call here...you also have to reduce your T outs since the T of hearts is dirty...
river: perfecto [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

and like lmd said, i don't really factor in free showdown raises unless i have more history with a person...

[Mr Rick]

Preflop - I do the same, I hate getting re-raised with KTo.
Flop - Must raise to try to get button out and gain position... Once he cold calls 2 bets, the turn fold to his raise is easy. Also, he may fold K7s or 77 here (or other 2 or 3 out hands)...
Turn - I am folding almost always unless he has shown tricky aggressive turn play before (with draws or middle pair big kicker).
River - You saved a BB, IMO.

[Nate.]

Joker --

Preflop fine.

I like the flop play and think that results are coloring people's assessment of it. All the usual reasons.

Folding this turn seems bad to me. 11-1, everyone. And also, if Button is trying to read hands he could easily think that some one-pair hand -- even occasionally a worse hand -- is best often enough to fight for it. I know, I know, we're supposed to have a read here, but the point is that (a) I've played with tons of these old guys and sometimes they overvalue hands once they finally arthritically sprinkle some chips into the pot, and sometimes they -- gasp -- play well, and either one of these makes the turn an easy call, and more importantly even a small % that he fits either of these profiles swings this to a call. Do the numbers. He's getting 11-1.

The river is like any other river decision in limit hold'em. Wish I could tell you more. I'm folding this more and more these days but depending on exactly how the action in the AA hand went down, and any other element of the vibe, I can't blame you for calling.

BTW, whoever said that K7s is his most likely hand... it's not.

Anyway, Joker, the river decision might be slightly wrong but you didn't butcher this one.

--Nate

[DeeJ]

I think you are looking at 12:1 pot odds and you likely need to hit your kicker to win (3 outs) about half the time (1.5 outs). Maybe a King would be good? At least one may be dead. Let's say 2 outs good half the time = 1 out. 2.5 outs total you need about 20:1 pot odds

So fold the turn!

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
he's raising for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few people raise for a FSD. Less live. Old rocks, well, I don't want to say never but I haven't seen it yet.