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#11
02-17-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Thoughts of a lower-stakes loser: I just can't see past the preflop, which all but rules out AQ and AA in my eyes, so we're only reasonably behind to 55. Any Q plays like this some of the time, especially when the A falls since he can convince himself you're holding the ace and he's crushing you. I think one or two bets would be the right amount on this river, so I bet-call. Guy. [/ QUOTE ] Guy, I strongly oppose bet/calling because I think it is too likely that he just calls your river bet with the hands you beat, but raises the hands that beat you. Yet the pot is big enough that you must call if he raises. In this regard, check/call is clearly superior, because he will bet all hands that you beat and all that hands that beat you when checked to, making it superior to bet/call. It's debatable that against certain opps, check-raising is a better line (and in my view, this line necessarily involves calling a 3bet). Yes we sometimes lose 3 bets to AA/AQ that played tricky early on, but that's more than made up for getting 2 and not 1 bet from QJ/QT. [/ QUOTE ] I'm pretty sure you can go another salvo here. This really feels like QJ/QT with the preflop float and everything, especially against someone described as mediocre. I do think I prefer a check-raise to a bet-call. I think you get better equity on the second bet that goes in this way, enough that it's worth risking the third bet that goes in. The exception is if he's tricky and might have been free showdowning with something, but there's a chance those sorts of hands aren't willing to put any more money into the pot anyway. 
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#12
02-17-2007, 05:52 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
Guy, I strongly oppose bet/calling because... [/ QUOTE ] My point was supposed to be that I tend to screw these pots up because I let one street's action convince me that he can't possibly have a hand that beats me. So I bet, he raises, I call and I lose. Guy.
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#13
02-17-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Guy, I strongly oppose bet/calling because... [/ QUOTE ] My point was supposed to be that I tend to screw these pots up because I let one street's action convince me that he can't possibly have a hand that beats me. So I bet, he raises, I call and I lose. Guy. [/ QUOTE ] FWIW, I don't think the call if you bet out and are raised is a crying call by any means. I'd expect to be good fairly often. But I still like the check-raise line better.
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#15
02-17-2007, 08:25 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
why can't you c/r and fold to a 3-bet? [/ QUOTE ] because that play sucks always! and ill probably get flack for saying so but I don't think it should ever be in a tough player's repetoire against an unkown. edit: in this size pot
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#16
02-21-2007, 01:14 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
It's debatable that against certain opps, check-raising is a better line (and in my view, this line necessarily involves calling a 3bet). Yes we sometimes lose 3 bets to AA/AQ that played tricky early on, but that's more than made up for getting 2 and not 1 bet from QJ/QT. [/ QUOTE ] C/r looks like the best line to me, just because of AA/AQ not being that likely after his preflop action and QJ/QT are typical cold calling hands. I'm mostly afraid of 55, but that might not cost us 3 bets either after we make this strong c/r. So: c/r > c/c > b/c
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#17
02-21-2007, 01:18 PM
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Re: River
I don't like a c/r. This guy has a big hand here, should bet a queen for us. If we c/r we open ourselves up to a 3-bet.
If we bet/call we are losing 2 bets. If we check/call we are making one bet or losing one bet.
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#18
02-21-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
why can't you c/r and fold to a 3-bet? [/ QUOTE ] I would bet/3bet and fold to a cap. srs, c/c river.
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#19
02-21-2007, 01:34 PM
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Re: River
[ QUOTE ]
why can't you c/r and fold to a 3-bet? [/ QUOTE ] Because some mediocre players think that QJ is the nuts here. It takes balls but I think that we're ahead often enough that checkraising the river, calling a 3 bet has a tiny bit more EV than c/calling the river. But I think it's soo close that c/call is fine if you don't want to give yourself an ulcer. FWIW, I think bet/call blows: I'd rather get 2 bets from QT, lose 3 to 55, than get one bet from QT, lose 2 to 55.
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