Evolutionists MUST Be Semi Atheists

[John21]

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My point may be a little tricky and is not directed at the atheist evolutionists who have thus far replied. It is directed at the religious evolutionists.

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This is such a difficult question to answer in an 'a priori' sense. We're living in a techni-color world, and to conclude what an 'a posteriori' black &white or non-visual world could have been like, is conjecture at best.

I find it hard to escape the conclusion that we're living in a Zarathustrian world were human destiny is directed entirely by human will. Now we might question whether or not our will is governed by emotion, reason or a higher power, but to ignore the human will's influence over the current evolution of the human species, would seem impossible.

I really don't know how we can divorce from the will: ourselves; our ancestors; or for that matter any form of life. Whether the will is an evolved, emerged, or intelligently designed trait… we don't know. It's not something that's quantifiable or provable, and exists only subjectively - but it's real nonetheless. Certain individual organisms grit their proverbial teeth; prevail and win. Others don't.

When we operate collectively, it's the organism that can expand it's will the most that ultimately prevails. No man's individual will can prevail against the will of a tribe, and no tribe's will can prevail over the will of a nation. Beyond that it's the will of an ideal(s) over a nation, and ultimately the will of a God. For that reason, religion is and will always be, the most powerful force on the planet.

I know that idea doesn't sit well with the anti-religious or atheist crowd, and it didn't sit well with Epictetus either, but it's still reality. And the reality is that there's a bunch of mini caliph's declaring mini jihad's. But tomorrow morning the major Caliph's could declare "The Jihad" and the Pope could declare Mohammed, not a false prophet but "the" false prophet (anti-Christ) and this whole gig we have going on will come to a screeching halt.

That's the stark reality of the world we live in. Is it stupid? Sure. But is running around calling people idiots going to fix the problem? No. Which really makes me question the utility of intelligence. If these people who hold intelligence on such a pedestal, had half the sense they think they do - they'd be able to acknowledge the problem and come up with some half-possible way of dealing with it - but do they? No.

To me any half-wit can be a skeptic, and any moron can point out what's wrong in the world or with what people believe. But a real genius can figure a way out of the mess all us idiots got ourselves into. And like the rest of the idiots, I'm too stupid to realize how stupid I am, so the genius' are going to have to paint a picture for me.

[Phil153]

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But a real genius can figure a way out of the mess all us idiots got ourselves into.

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They already have. It was called the Enlightenment, and it was where reason and compassion won against the evils of religion and superstition. You live in a pleasant world today because of the collective works of a handful of brave and intelligent people.

[chezlaw]

Polar bears don't have white coats.

Probably not terribly vital to your argument, wouldn't have bothered Aristotle much.

chez

[John21]

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But a real genius can figure a way out of the mess all us idiots got ourselves into.

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They already have. It was called the Enlightenment, and it was where reason and compassion won against the evils of religion and superstition. You live in a pleasant world today because of the collective works of a handful of brave and intelligent people.

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I have no problem accepting your point. But what I see as the relative issue is, in plethora of movements that occurred, they weren't attacks against something as much as they were actions toward something. The establishment of the United States, wasn't a destruction of a Monarchy, it was the movement towards a positive goal. I think the lesson of the Enlightenment wasn't that the good comes about by the destruction of the bad, but that if you focus your energy on the creation of the good, the bad just goes away.

You simply can't stamp out darkness. You just light a candle and it goes away. In other words: you Enlighten. Light is a positive force that darkness has no power over. Fighting darkness, substantiates darkness.

[ALawPoker]

Evolutionists must be semi Atheists? Or evolutionists must be semi non-Creationists?

Why can't someone take an "evolution is God's work" approach and accept that the most fit traits will inevitably survive (so it's improbable that any trait lacks an explanation). But also believe that God wants this to happen.

If you just meant to say that they can't be creationists, then I guess I agree (for the same reason that you can't be inside a room and outside at the same time). But even then you could still argue that God created us fit to survive in our environment. Why wouldn't He? So thus, it wouldn't matter. There would exist some sort of evolutionary "explanation" for all our traits, but we'd be looking at God's foresight rather than nature's hindsight. But the logical explanation would still be there.

[SitNHit]

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You are and Phil have missed my point. Maybe the whole organism was designed. The thing is that if there is a God that designs anything, then it is entirely possible, even if not probable, that he also designed things that include stuff that we presently have no explanation for. Too many of such things still exist to dismiss that possibility. Unless the possibility of such a God existing is also dismissed.

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Do you mean just like the universe started from some point and God created the things neccessary for it to evolve, just as our perfect orbit for us to exist, like he programmed it to work out this way knowing that we eventually would be created and what we would be like. Think of how big the universe is how it works, how are planet fits in with our galaxy and our perfect place in orbit and then how we are humans and our traits, special talents, characteristics, funtions of our brains, etc. I don't know where I am going with this but I think what you were trying to say that maybe evolution is the case in alot of things, but God created the things that have evolved.

I believe that the two most ignorant things to say is that God and the Devil absolutley do not exist.

I would think even for a non-believler that any person who has a brain with common sense and reason would be open to at least the possibility.

Anyways, maybe I am not sophistacted enough for this discussion, haha. Thought I would try to add my 2 cents in.
Mike.

[Rduke55]

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But what about traits that are particularly well adapted, and there is yet no obvious path to that trait through mere mutation and survival of the fittest?

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I'm a little confused as to what you're getting at here. Are you referring to traits where we just haven't figured out the likely steps behind its evolution?

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The argument that so many things have eventually been explained via evolution isn't strong enough to make it a favorite over an intelligent designer. At least in some cases.

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Can you expand here and give an example or two?

[Borodog]

David,

Which is more likely to have existed:

1) A very long chain of very small naturalistic changes, or
2) An infinitely complex intelligence that violates the (apparent) laws of physics.

[SitNHit]

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David,

Which is more likely to have existed:

1) A very long chain of very small naturalistic changes, or
2) An infinitely complex intelligence that violates the (apparent) laws of physics.

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The laws of Physics have been violated already with picture proof. An image by Hubble Telescope shows a Galaxy that has more then 8 times as many stars as our galaxy and according to physics theories, it shouldnt even exist.

[Mickey Brausch]

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An image by Hubble Telescope shows a Galaxy that has more then 8 times as many stars as our galaxy and according to physics theories, it shouldnt even exist.

[/ QUOTE ]The limit is 7 times?