Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?

[Shroomy]

I will always be suspect of any man who can say they know 100% the will of God.

[George Rice]

My observation is that moderates are not completely familiar with their religion's teachings or beliefs.

Extremists tend to focus on one part or another to base their beliefs.

Many who study the whole religion either don't understand it (and dare not question it) or reject it (Christians, anyway).

As an aside, I received an email once from a friend regarding the Koran, which had to do with destroying the United States. Being a skeptic, I searched online and found a site where I could check this out. Total bull. Emailed my friend back, and everyone else he forwarded it to, and suggested he double-check such inflammatory emails before forwarding.

If the Koran said such nasty things, wouldn't it be quoted?

From what I've read, the Bible is far worse than the Koran.

But what do I know. The one guy I knew who regularly read the Koran was convicted as a terrorist.

[Bill Haywood]

why do the moderates not make a major effort to engage extremists in a public debate

You'd have to read Arabic newspapers to really know the scene, but people who've lived in the Mideast and read the newspapers tell me that there is a constant debate. Tension between moderate and extreme interpretations of Islam DEFINE contemporary life in the Muslim world. In fact, Iranian students are protesting the freakish Holocaust denial conference in Tehran as we speak. London Times article

many western writers state the it appears the Koran does indeed advocate what the extremists claim.

Like the Bible, you can find support for most any position. But there is no lack of support for peace and tolerance in the Koran.

I am currently reading the superb book Islam, by Karen Armstrong, a prominent scholar of religion. According to her, Mohammed considered himself simply the latest of many prophets speaking for God. He insisted that Jesus, Jacob, and other children of Abraham followed just as legitimate a path as Muslims. His goal was to bring monotheism and the religion of Abraham to the Arabs, and had no strong feelings about what anyone else should think. Armstrong goes so far as to suggest that although Mohammed had never heard of Budda or Confuscious, he would have considered them simply other messengers of the one true God, albeit directed at Asia. The Prophet specified that Jews and Christians should be revered and not coerced to change. Mohammed apparently saw Christians and Jews as more advanced than Arabs because they had adopted Abraham's monotheism. They were to be emulated, not persecuted.

Within Arabia, he brokered peace agreements and halted much of the endemic tribal warfare.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]


Oh Christmas Tree

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

Not only in the summertime,
But even in winter is thy prime.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

[/ QUOTE ]

SEATTLE AIRPORT TAKES DOWN CHRISTMAS TREE, IN SHOW OF SECULARISM

[jah7_fsu1]

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The Catholic analogy relates to whether it is possible to not believe Jesus is the son of God, (even though he is known to you) and still have a chance at heaven. Apparently the Catholic answer is yes. But the fundamentalist Christian answer is no.

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Can someone fill this in for me...I thought Catholics were some of the most strict on if you don't believe in Jesus you cannot make it into heaven. I'm reading this like most Catholics think you don't have to believe that Jesus was the Son of God to get into heaven. I'll admit I'm no Catholic guru at all, but I always thought Catholics were the most stringent on "only one way to get in heaven and that is through God?"

[Blarg]

He was also a warlord, and one way he was able to settle tribal problems was by scaring the living crap out of everyone.

That said, it's not like being a brutal warlord and screwing tons of women, including underage ones, was unpopular at the time.

[Piemaster]

Personally I've never seen the point of this kind of religeous debate. Surely belief by it's very nature is a personal thing. The Bible (or Koran) doesn't define what you believe, youdefine what you believe.

A Christian (for want of a better word) can read the Bible and decide for himself what parts he wants to believe or take literally and what parts he doesn't. If he elects to disbelieve certain parts (the resurrection for example), then fundamentalist Christians might say that he can no longer call himself a Christian. But then again, this also is a personal thing, 'Christian' is just a label. Fundamentalist Christians have no right to say what you can call yourself in a free country.

As a result, the whole debate becomes rather meaningless. Can a non-believer get into heaven? Some people would say yes and some would say no. Who really cares what the Bible says, because virtually by definition you can pick and chose what parts of the bible you want to believe. The non-believer himself certainly wouldn't care as he doesn't believe in heaven anyway. Maybe when you get up there you can see who was right, but until then it's not really worth debating.

[Willd]

I'm a Christian who went to a Catholic school and as far as I'm concerned the major turning point in any form of Christianity is that Jesus was the son of God and that knowing Jesus is a requirement for heaven. The whole reason for this is that heaven is a perfect place, there is no sin. The only way Christians believe a person can become sinless it through belief that through Jesus' death on the cross he took away our sins. I don't know as much about the exact Catholic teaching as I probably should do having come from a Catholic school but I do know that the church I currently belong to fully belief that noone can enter heaven without knowledge of Jesus.

As far as Islam goes I only know a little, but the major aspect that I think extremists and liberalist differ on is their interpretation of jihad. Extremists take the idea of jihad literally, and see it as a calling to take part in Holy Wars, whereas liberalists see jihad as an internal spiritual battle, rather than physical battles.

In the early days of Islam the religion was spread by holy war, Mohammed leading the first of these. The later suras in the Qur'an have phrases such as "fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them" and "fight those who do not believe in Allah". These contradict the earlier phrase "let there be no compulsion in religion". Liberalists may use that earlier phrase as justification as Islam being a peaceful religion, however in cases where there is contradiction in Qur'an Islamic teaching instructs Muslims to obey the later command. From what I personally understand of Islam and the teachings of the Qur'an I don't see how it could be construed as a peaceful religion.

[Yo_Respek]

I think what they are doing is giving people a chance to figure it out for themselves. Saying that if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to hell can be a difficult thing to say to someone.

A great example is a funeral for someone who everyone knows didn't believe. You don't hear the priest talk about that persons stay in hell.

The interesting thing about the major religions that have the most conflict with each other is that the God they are referencing is the same God. Muslims,Christians and Jews all have the same God and agree they have the same God. The thing they don't agree about is who the messiah is. The Jews say the messiah hasn't come yet. The muslims say that Christ was the messiah and the fourth most important prophet but dispute the meaning of messiah. They say Mohammad is the last prophet(5th) and the most perfect being ever created. They all talk about Moses and the old testament. They all talk about God or Allah which is the same thing.

So to answer your question no that they aren't inconsistant or dumb. I just think they are being careful and humble. There might in fact be situations where mercy is given to someone by God. It wouldn't be fair or right to hurt people by taking away their HOPE when we may not be speaking correctly for God.

In reference to extremist groups

Jesus said "Give onto Ceasers what is Ceasers and unto Gods what is God's". The wisdom in this is that things have to run their course. That even if Ceaser is wrong it doesn't make it right to break the law if other ways to acomplish your goal can be had. So even if the extremists are correct in their view and interpretation they might have the wrong cause. They might be taking the wrong actions. They might even be able to acomplish the same result by doing it a different way. They say that Allah has called upon them to do these things that they are doing. The point is only God knows what He is using to acomplish His goals.

Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God. Eternal life seems better than rotting in a hole somewhere with no conciousness. As an atheist you can take whatever approach you want to try to make yourself feel confident that you are making the right decision. But you have to be 100 percent sure with NO DOUBT whatsoever for Atheism to be a +EV decision. Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth. They are very smart in humanist ways. Usually Science or Math. The irony is that the things they excell at the most are the things that prove that they are wrong. It's hilarious seeing an atheist explain his position.

[Piemaster]

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Atheists are stupid because they refuse to prepare for the possibility that there could be a God.

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Atheists are the dumbest group of people on the face of the Earth.

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2/10

Your post was reasonable and then it descended into this trite. I was going to respond, now I'm not going to bother.