A question for CA 5-150 players

[Jive Dadson]

How about this one? Last night. Bay 101. I had pocket tens. Flop comes Qxx rainbow. I had the lead, and I continuation-bet $40. Young, intellegent guy on my left goes all-in for $68 total, and it was folded around to me. I knew absolutely he had queens or better. No doubt. So I started figuring if I had the 10 point something to 1 odds I needed to call. Okay, 10 is a pretty easy number for us decimal types, but I couldn't think because EVERYONE at the table was loudly telling me to call, because it only cost $28 more. I told them to be quiet and let me think, but that only provoked more taunts. There wasn't anywhere near $280 in the pot, so I laid the hand down to a chorus of jeers. Afterwards, I appologized to my opponent for the others' behavior. One guy who looked to be in his fifties said, "You're right." Nothing from the others.

That wasn't the worst incident of the night. A man called me out of turn, and I'm pretty sure it cost me $120 I would have gotten from the guy in front of him, who was messing with his chips and fishing for a tell from his left hand opponent. The upside is the culprit called with a naked flush draw (he proudly showed the losing hand) without anything like the right odds. I had a set, BTW. Funny thing is, if he had hit a flush card that didn't pair the board, his calling out of turn would have cost HIM $120. But he was so excited to be drawing to the nuts that he almost soiled himself in anticipation.

[pc in NM]

I agree about the floor needing to back the dealers if we expect them to address the behavior.

But, I recall that I learned some of these very lessons as a newbie when inappropriate behavior at the table (sometimes, even my own) was addressed by players in hands. In fact, sometimes this was done loudly and harshly, and, even if it wasn't my own behavior, I quickly got the messaage...

Shouldn't players address this directly? After all, it's in everyone's interest, even the rude players'....

P. S. You should see me in a movie theater when other customers begin carrying on as if they were in their own livingrooms....

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree about the floor needing to back the dealers if we expect them to address the behavior.

But, I recall that I learned some of these very lessons as a newbie when inappropriate behavior at the table (sometimes, even my own) was addressed by players in hands. In fact, sometimes this was done loudly and harshly, and, even if it wasn't my own behavior, I quickly got the messaage...

Shouldn't players address this directly? After all, it's in everyone's interest, even the rude players'....

P. S. You should see me in a movie theater when other customers begin carrying on as if they were in their own livingrooms....

[/ QUOTE ]

At Bay 101 where I play, there are a few dealers who can and will take some responsibility, but only a few. I don't like to get them involved though, because the jackasses are frequently the best tippers. The concept of the dealer running the game has failed utterly.

For the first six years of my casino card playing there was no house dealer, and the games generally ran smooth as silk. (There were those who said there was cheating going on, but if there was any cheating in the games I played in, they must have cheated someone else.)

The house needs to educate both the dealers and the players alike.

[Percula]

The worst one that happened to me in the 5-150 was...

Solid player is in seat 3, his buddy in 4, me in 5. 3 is OTB and raises to 25 after it folds to him, buddy calls, I call with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Flop come K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I lead for $50 after SB checks, OTB RR to $100, SB folds and I call knowing his OTB raise range is pretty wide, likely a lessor K. Turn Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I check/call $100. River 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] giving me the str8 flush...

I lead for $75, OTB insta RR $150, I insta RR $150, we go 5 RR $150 in lightning speed and the dealer has to stop us because we weren't moving chips, just making verbal raises.

I decide to double check my J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] since I had been up for >24 hours, yep still the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I guess his buddy seen my hand when I checked, and he leans back and tells his buddy that I have the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. His buddy says he doesn't care because he has the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], then his buddy points out that the J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes the str8 flush. I was so stunned and tired that I did not shut the buddy up... OTB calls the last raise and I sweep a large pot with OTB still having about $750 behind.

I was VERY VERY pissed. OTB was tired too and did not think about the str8 flush. There was no cap on raises HU and once the dealer got the RR worked out, we would have felted.

I told the buddy that if he EVER did that I again I would beat him to a pulp. He seemed to not know what I was talking about when his buddy echo'ed my statement, and that he had better never do it again. OTB got up cashed out and came back by the table... "I am not sure I would have not figured out you had the nuts or not, but I am sure I would lost most of my stack, sorry about that, it will never happen again". Then he stuffed $500 in the shirt pocket. I tried to refuse repeatedly, but he would have none of it.

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to see things are better in Arizona (assume this from your bio). In LA you would be hard pressed to find a game with blinds 5/10 and under (perhaps except the un-restricted buyin games) where this doesn't happen. It's no wonder Jamie Gold came from playing these games in LA.

The floor will say something but in general the house and floor staff are not being pro-active as they should be.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, Casino Arizona

The "newer" floor staff that has come up thru the ranks are pretty good in the high limit section, which is where the 5-150 is spread. They would put an end to that BS ASAP assuming they were not running around collecting time, or having to mess with some promotion crap.

I have talked to them about things happening at the table before, and have only been let down once, when they were running some promotion and had to go collect tickets from each table and the mess that comes with that.

[Hendricks433]

[ QUOTE ]
The worst one that happened to me in the 5-150 was...

Solid player is in seat 3, his buddy in 4, me in 5. 3 is OTB and raises to 25 after it folds to him, buddy calls, I call with KJ. Flop come KTx, I lead for $50 after SB checks, OTB RR to $100, SB folds and I call knowing his OTB raise range is pretty wide, likely a lessor K. Turn Q, I check/call $100. River 9 giving me the str8 flush...

I lead for $75, OTB insta RR $150, I insta RR $150, we go 5 RR $150 in lightning speed and the dealer has to stop us because we weren't moving chips, just making verbal raises.

I decide to double check my J since I had been up for >24 hours, yep still the J. I guess his buddy seen my hand when I checked, and he leans back and tells his buddy that I have the J. His buddy says he doesn't care because he has the A, then his buddy points out that the J makes the str8 flush. I was so stunned and tired that I did not shut the buddy up... OTB calls the last raise and I sweep a large pot with OTB still having about $750 behind.

I was VERY VERY pissed. OTB was tired too and did not think about the str8 flush. There was no cap on raises HU and once the dealer got the RR worked out, we would have felted.

I told the buddy that if he EVER did that I again I would beat him to a pulp. He seemed to not know what I was talking about when his buddy echo'ed my statement, and that he had better never do it again. OTB got up cashed out and came back by the table... "I am not sure I would have not figured out you had the nuts or not, but I am sure I would lost most of my stack, sorry about that, it will never happen again". Then he stuffed $500 in the shirt pocket. I tried to refuse repeatedly, but he would have none of it.


[/ QUOTE ] wow I woulda flipped the table over. then beat him down.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
How about this one? Last night. Bay 101. I had pocket tens. Flop comes Qxx rainbow. I had the lead, and I continuation-bet $40. Young, intellegent guy on my left goes all-in for $68 total, and it was folded around to me. I knew absolutely he had queens or better. No doubt. So I started figuring if I had the 10 point something to 1 odds I needed to call. Okay, 10 is a pretty easy number for us decimal types, but I couldn't think because EVERYONE at the table was loudly telling me to call, because it only cost $28 more. I told them to be quiet and let me think, but that only provoked more taunts. There wasn't anywhere near $280 in the pot, so I laid the hand down to a chorus of jeers. Afterwards, I appologized to my opponent for the others' behavior. One guy who looked to be in his fifties said, "You're right." Nothing from the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good move on your part apologizing to your opponent for the other's behavior. But you had to be very sure your opponent was a "young, intelligent guy". Sometimes people go "allin" just to get it over with and go home. Anyway, hope you enjoy my story in your thread.




[ QUOTE ]
That wasn't the worst incident of the night. A man called me out of turn, and I'm pretty sure it cost me $120 I would have gotten from the guy in front of him, who was messing with his chips and fishing for a tell from his left hand opponent. The upside is the culprit called with a naked flush draw (he proudly showed the losing hand) without anything like the right odds. I had a set, BTW. Funny thing is, if he had hit a flush card that didn't pair the board, his calling out of turn would have cost HIM $120. But he was so excited to be drawing to the nuts that he almost soiled himself in anticipation.

[/ QUOTE ]


I haven't had time to respond to the "out of turn" protection yet but remember years ago complaining in a 2+2 thread about how people folding out of turn often costs me the pot (my example was the simple case where I bet the river in limit with a weakish hand into what I think is a slightly stronger hand with a missed draw acting last - the guy caught in the middle could see the draw folding out of turn so he made a very weak call he couldn't otherwise make).

Ray Zee chimed in and told me to grow up and face reality. He wrote that top players consider the fact that people won't act in turn before they make the play and top players realize that over their career they make far more money than they lose because so many players in fact do this (he's right, for example in many games I get two or three buttons every round because players telegraph their intentions).

That said, it still gets players upset and the clubs should do what they can to control it. But this may be less realistic than controlling coffee-housing.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have talked to them about things happening at the table before, and have only been let down once, when they were running some promotion and had to go collect tickets from each table and the mess that comes with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Side point but one thing I like about "Frequent Player's" credit type cards is that the once per hour scanning has virtually eliminated promotions involving tickets. God I hated those when I worked the floor ten years ago.

~ Rick

PS Best friend and I hope to make our first ever trip to Casino Arizona in a few weeks. We may post some questions about weekday lodging and the games on B&M.

~ Rick

[Jive Dadson]

[ QUOTE ]
But you had to be very sure your opponent was a "young, intelligent guy". Sometimes people go "allin" just to get it over with and go home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry. I was 99.44% sure. The only way I was ahead was if he misread his cards. But he checked again before pushing.

[Spaggy]

5-150 at CAZ is my favorite game in the world right now. I'm not a fan at other places around AZ, but I think the out of control aspect on friday/saturday evenings makes the games more of a mind play. People do all kinds of things I'm sure are against the rules in many cardrooms (talking during hands they're not in, pushing people to call, acting out of turn, borderline string bets, etc). I'm by no means a pro or a shark, but the last few times I played there I lied like crazy to build a pushover table image (will whiff a flop, make a tiny bet, then fold to a raise, or medium/large bet on turn). People get in to coaching people in hands, and after I do this I'll annouce I folded a low flush, bottom set, etc., which makes them think I'm a NUTS only net peddler, and can bought out almost any pot. Then, when I actually have a hand I want to play getting the crazies to put in a fair portion of their stack (especially since mine is tiny) usually ends up with one or two big pots and then a quick exit by me.

Granted my playing time/sample size is much much smaller than most people here, I've had decent success buying in short in the 5-150, going for a quick score at a wild table, then leaving. I think at lower limits, the idiot behavior of most people who learn from TV isn't a bad thing. In higher limits with more serious play, everything that happens in CAZ 5-150 would be so off limits.