2/4 QTo against 1 limper

[HoneyBadger]

I'd bet the river as well. Not against a solid player tho. Also remember that you now tie with KQ. Your hand improved a lot by that 2nd 3 and the ace.

[James.]

i like the hand. i think a river bet is slightly +EV, although i think it is marginal and not a huge deal either way. does everyone understand that the 50/3 is out and we are against the "slightly loose and passive" BB? i'm not arguing against a bet, i'm just saying factor in the times we get beat by a 3 or ace and split with another Q plus the times he has [censored] and folds to our river bet into the times he calls with his 7 or 88 or whatever and i don't think it's a big money maker/loser over the longterm.

[brettbrettr]

I limp pre-flop.

[James.]

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I limp pre-flop.

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why?

[brettbrettr]

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I limp pre-flop.

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why?

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Cuz I"m an idiot and I thought it said the CO folded. When I looked at the title of the post-ie, "1 limper"--I thought, hmm, a diffeent QT hand?

[James.]

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[ QUOTE ]
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I limp pre-flop.

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why?

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Cuz I"m an idiot and I thought it said the CO folded. When I looked at the title of the post-ie, "1 limper"--I thought, hmm, a diffeent QT hand?

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i think given the description of the blinds and keeping the pot small for bigger mistakes, yada, yada type deal. i think there is merit in limping, but raising is better.

[SixForty]

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Sierra, although I agree with you, how do you figure "more than 50% of the time"? Just by feel from playing? Or did you take a more objective approach when coming up with that?

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Sort of half and half. I just think of all the different hand ranges that a loose passive Villain is going to have on the river.

If Villain has a Q, you now chop with any other Q except AQ, Q7, and Q3. All 3 of those hands would give more action than that I think (each of those would probably bet out the flop) So I'm not concerned as much about losing to a Q.

If Villain has a 3, I also think you hear about that sooner. If Villain drew out on you with just a naked A, so be it. But I think there are very few hands that he's calling with A high all the way to the river on a non-draw friendly board. My biggest concern is A7 just drew out on you.

On the other hand, there's lots of hands that a loose passive is going to call with on this river that you are ahead of. Especially since he was in the BB and his initial starting hand range is most likely wider than it may otherwise be. He'll call on the end with any 7, from K7 right on down to 74. And he'll also call with any pocket pair. I think this range of hands that you beat will be higher than the range of hands that beat you.

So it's just a general objective approach, not an exact counting and weighting system of a hand range.

Hope that helps!

[TitanFan]

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I don't think I would have raised preflop though, or even called in some situations.

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First of all WOW!!! That converter you are using is TOTALLY COOL!!!!! Ok, now that thats out of my system . . . QTo is one of those hands that is really good against weak limpers. I think this guys stats exemplify loosness [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] so limping is good, with the added value of folding the blinds I think that a raise is good PF. (Unless you are SURE that the blinds will call, and play semi-decently. In that case you will be up against 3 opponents with a marginal holding.)

[Donkster]

Raising is a terrible play here. It is highly unlikely that you have a better hand than the limper, nor will you force any better hand from the blinds (or possibly any hand at all) to fold in a game like the one you describe. By raising you are a building a bigger pot with a hand in which you are likely behind. Bad idea.

[SixForty]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is a terrible play here. It is highly unlikely that you have a better hand than the limper, nor will you force any better hand from the blinds (or possibly any hand at all) to fold in a game like the one you describe. By raising you are a building a bigger pot with a hand in which you are likely behind. Bad idea.

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First of all, the limper is 50/3. QTo is likely to fair very well against the limper's hand range here.

Secondly, the limper is passive. Hero can easily outplay him postflop.

Thirdly, a raise here WILL get a lot of better hands to fold in the blinds that you want to fold - any weak offsuit A or K will fold to a raise here often enough.

Raising here is definitely a good play. It's getting beyond the strict "1 limper, QT on the button, I fold" and recognizing that the playing conditions for the hand you have are good.