Live 20/40 AKs in the CO...river play? - Page 2

jfk · #11 06-11-2006, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Before lots of people start talking about getting 16:1 on the end I just wanted to point out we need to be good way more often than that if we are resigned to call down from the turn no matter what.

(Not trying to be weak-tight nitty... I pay this off like it's my [censored] job !) [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't calling down from the turn. He has the nut flush draw and an ISD. It's a very robust hand.

That being said, I'd tend to call the turn because the other caller has acted. Had he been behind, a raise would've been in order. Raising is reasonable with your redraws, but it is likely enough that you're behind that I'd prefer not to bump it. The way the hand has played the turn would likely then go to three bets. Of course, you could be free rolling another AK and a weaker club draw in which case your turn raise makes you look like a savant. I don't think that happens enough to justify a raise but we can always dream.

Call that river.

p.s. are all the limit games getting raked for $5 now or just 20/40 and above? Did they get rid of time collection for the bigger games? That's a usurious rate.

Garland · #12 06-11-2006, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. are all the limit games getting raked for $5 now or just 20/40 and above? Did they get rid of time collection for the bigger games? That's a usurious rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

jfk,

I wasn't at the other limit games, but I inquired about them with other players and the dealer. At Bay 101 it appears all limit games $20/$40 up to $100/$200 now $5 drop (no more time collection for the bigger games). All limit games below $20/$40 are $4. I believe at least one of the spread limit games drops $5 for a $200 max buy-in. It appears either I need to take my $20/$40 to Garden City ($4 per hand), travel to Lucky Chances ($7 per half hour) or play the $15/$30 at Artichoke Joes ($3 per hand + $1 jackpot). When I asked a player at Garden City, she said that Garden City is going to raise the rate to $5 come July. I don't know about the reliability of that statement though. If they all raise the rake, I just guess I'll have to take my game to the next level...$100/$200 here I come! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, thank you for your response. I absolutely love your comments. By the sounds of things, it looks like you may play around these parts. Are you from around here?

Garland

Garland · #13 06-11-2006, 06:46 PM

I hemmed and hawed and folded.

Flop thoughts: I obviously had a monster hand with TPTK, and a gutshot straight flush draw. 4-betting for value is a must.

Turn thoughts: I really think that a flaw that 2+2ers have is that they assume (1) players play the same way as us or (2) they don't adjust their game from online to live. Let's think about this: I've shown strength pre-flop and 4-bet strength on the flop, and this guy still leads into me on the turn. This guy doesn't care if I'm going to raise. I have absolutely no fold equity, and it's virtually a lock I'm behind to BB. IMO, raising is a disaster as I'm begging to get 3-bet causing me to pay the absolute maximum for my draw, which has weakened somewhat on the turn. Although this guy is aggressive, I didn't say he was reckless or dumb, nor is he necessarily of 2+2 caliber. This is the reason to call.

BTW, if it happened to get checked to me, I was going to check behind. Do you think this is wrong?

River thoughts: This is where my instincts kick in as a player. Despite getting huge odds for the pot, I could not possibly put him on a hand that I can beat as there is no way any one at that table plays AK that way so hard, even the most aggressive of them. And despite getting about 16:1 for a huge pot, I took a minute and folded and also expected him to show. He showed KQo for the nuts. I asked LMP what he hand, he said Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Man, what a payoff I would have gotten if a club came.

Thank you for all your thoughts,

Garland

Haupt_234 · #14 06-11-2006, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He showed KQo for the nuts. I asked LMP what he hand, he said Q5. Man, what a payoff I would have gotten if a club came.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the way you played the entire hand, FWIW.

Haupt_234

jfk · #15 06-11-2006, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, thank you for your response. I absolutely love your comments. By the sounds of things, it looks like you may play around these parts. Are you from around here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're very welcome and thanks for the kind words. You guys do the hard part in posting the hands.

I am local. If you're the guy I'm thinking of, we've been at the table together a few times. It may not happen again for awhile if places start going to a $5 rake. WPX is ruining me for live play.

elysium · #16 06-12-2006, 05:46 AM

hi garland

haven't read the responses to your post but assume that you've been told that the iso raise with A8 from that position is not good.

you're a little better off calling the 3-bet and raising the turn from LP. this way you use your positional advantage. do you see how the cap provides your opponent with valuable information that he would otherwise have to guess at? he knows that you have a made hand and you know that he knows this as well. furthermore, he knows that you know that he knows. if he has a hand that he can safely fold to a turn raise, the cap enables him to do so. therefore he bets out. now, instead of raising because; you may be in the lead by a sufficient enough margin; to make the draw pay; and for the free showdown in the event that you don't improve, not to mention that if you are reraised you will be able to make the call with ease, instead gar you have wasted these, your precious positional rights, and have given your opponent both barrels while holding open throttle.

sadly, there will be no free showdown in this one. i was able to gleen as much without having finished reading your post beyond the flop.

when you have precious positional safety rights that afford you greater and greater information while your opponent is struggling to assess what you may or may not do, go ahead and fire away, but do so at least with closed and not open bore. you will keep your opponent guessing this way and garner or save extra bets on the expensive round that can really add up. of course, without those precious positional safety rights, blasting away on the flop like this to make your opponent pay the very fullest makes much more sense as you lack vital information now and your intelligence will unlikely improve on the later rounds.

Clarkmeister · #17 07-01-2006, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but do so at least with closed and not open bore

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

gaming_mouse · #18 07-01-2006, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

you're a little better off calling the 3-bet and raising the turn from LP. this way you use your positional advantage. do you see how the cap provides your opponent with valuable information that he would otherwise have to guess at? he knows that you have a made hand and you know that he knows this as well. furthermore, he knows that you know that he knows. if he has a hand that he can safely fold to a turn raise, the cap enables him to do so. therefore he bets out. now, instead of raising because; you may be in the lead by a sufficient enough margin; to make the draw pay; and for the free showdown in the event that you don't improve, not to mention that if you are reraised you will be able to make the call with ease, instead gar you have wasted these, your precious positional rights, and have given your opponent both barrels while holding open throttle.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds interesting, but I can't understand it because the wording, spelling and punctuation is unclear. Could you please rephrase this?

Basically what I got from you is that if you call the 3bet and raise the turn you will get calldowns from worse hands. Is that correct?

Thanks for any elaboration.

SackUp · #19 07-01-2006, 07:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but do so at least with closed and not open bore

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

clark, are you bumping every thread elysium has posted in?

as to the OP - you said you would check the turn behind if checked to? I think this is a bad idea. You have TPTK and the nut flush draw. still a great chance you have the best hand lots of equity regardless. I don't like a turn check through. If you are c/r on the turn it makes your river laydown much easier.