The Value of Suited Aces in NL Hold 'Em

[Tokyo Joe]

At a full table:

Fold in ep, call in mp, raise on button or cut off. Don't call raises with it, especially out of position. Remember that 80% of the time you will totally miss the flop. 15% of the time you will be left with a tough decision...an ace hits or you get a flush draw. But that the best it usually gets. Fish love this hand...but it is costly.

[GoodTiMes]

position is very important with ace rag suited.

You don't want to play these out of position for a lot of money...

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
suited aces are GOOD hands. i always here people say that you shouldn't play them, or if you do then you have to always fear a better ace. i disagree on both points.

a brief quiz from the EV charts...which hand has more EV preflop?

A9s or 99? 99
A4s or 44? 44
ATs 0r QJs? ATs
ATs or T9s? ATs
A5s or 66? 66
ATs or AQo? AQo
A4s or 87s? A4s


i hope you picked the suited ace everytime. suited aces are the 3rd best type of starting hand behind big pairs and big broadway cards. they're better hands than almost all small to medium pairs and almost all suited connectors.

if you are going to play any style other than an absolute rock 'i only raise with AA and KK' type of poker you need to play suited Aces.

i say play and occasionally raise with them from MP and LP, and call a decent raise if you limp. if an ace comes on the flop don't be afraid to bet out with no kicker.... aces don't grow on trees, so if you weren't reraised before the flop there is no reason to think you're beat.

the dailt pursuit of LAG mastery.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It is pretty obvious you are confused.

Jimbo

[12AX7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
suited aces are GOOD hands. i always here people say that you shouldn't play them, or if you do then you have to always fear a better ace. i disagree on both points.

a brief quiz from the EV charts...which hand has more EV preflop?

A9s or 99? 99
A4s or 44? 44
ATs 0r QJs? ATs
ATs or T9s? ATs
A5s or 66? 66
ATs or AQo? AQo
A4s or 87s? A4s


i hope you picked the suited ace everytime. suited aces are the 3rd best type of starting hand behind big pairs and big broadway cards. they're better hands than almost all small to medium pairs and almost all suited connectors.

if you are going to play any style other than an absolute rock 'i only raise with AA and KK' type of poker you need to play suited Aces.

i say play and occasionally raise with them from MP and LP, and call a decent raise if you limp. if an ace comes on the flop don't be afraid to bet out with no kicker.... aces don't grow on trees, so if you weren't reraised before the flop there is no reason to think you're beat.

the dailt pursuit of LAG mastery.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It is pretty obvious you are confused.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's beat this one up a little? Elmitchbo seems to be saying he has mathematical evidence they are decent hands. Jimbo seems to be saying the opposite?

My self I've done some "No Foldem" sims from heads up to 6 opponents at a point when I was considering propping. Hence I foresaw lots of short handed games in my future.

It seemed to me people were playing "Any Ace, Any King, Any Pair, and Any Suited Connector" which I modeled. Actually I'd swear it's any two suited, but OK a minor point.

My goal was to identify which hands won more than thier fair share against X opponents. The thought being that since each opponent has to put in a bet for every bet I put in, winning more than your fair share is a good starting place to select starting hands.

I found the following ranges won more than thier fair share:

Heads Up AKs-A4s
3 Handed AKs-A5s
4 Handed AKs-A6s
5 Handed AKs-A7s
6 Handed AKs-A8s
7 Handed AKs-A9s

Interestingly the range gets tighter with more opponents. Exactly the opposite of Kxs and Qxs etc. Not sure what accounts for that. I didn't store the breakdown of winning hands, but probably should have in retrospect, so we could see what accounts for most of the EV.

However, seems to me the assumption here is that you are going to the river every time, as are your opponents. So perhaps a middle of the road range might me AKs-A6s?


Another set of observations. AKs actually loses EV against more opponents. But AQs-AJs gains EV against more opponents. ATs seems to have a small sweet spot at about 3-4 opponents and A9s and below seem to lose EV with more opponents. Strangely suggesting that we want to play the smaller Axs heads up?

Not sure what to make of that. This is the first time I've seriously looked at those values in this spreadsheet in some time.

Perhaps my math or simulation softare is FUBAR?

In any event, seems more info is required to decide what the best line of play is for each case.

Comment?

P.S. Elmitchbo, where are your numbers coming from? I just spot checked my work and found 44 had greater EV than A4s and same for 55/A5s.

[terminatorSQ]

AXs is a great hand to paly at any position. I try to play everytime. Degree of raising and calling a raise depends on the image you have been portraying to the opponents, players doing the raise, and your position. Someone replied "playing AXs in early position is leaking moeny". It could very well be if you don't know how to play it. Any number of minor leaks will more than make up against AK or AQ whenever AXs flops two pair. Make a killing. If you don't play AXs or KXs, what do you paly??? What about 76s, 54s, T9s, JTs, ... ??????? Hello????

[Tokyo Joe]

Um, yeah, if it is cheap to play. Otherwise, you ARE leaking money.

[LyinKing]

I'm not opposed to raising with them either. Certainly they're tempting in an unraised pot, or for the price of calling a small raise, but I find them most troublesome when my limped A/5 suited runs into a limped A/9 off, etc.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
AXs is a great hand to paly at any position. I try to play everytime. Degree of raising and calling a raise depends on the image you have been portraying to the opponents, players doing the raise, and your position. Someone replied "playing AXs in early position is leaking moeny". It could very well be if you don't know how to play it. Any number of minor leaks will more than make up against AK or AQ whenever AXs flops two pair. Make a killing. If you don't play AXs or KXs, what do you paly??? What about 76s, 54s, T9s, JTs, ... ??????? Hello????


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this for real?

[SSgtBarry]

As you say, if "I can limp in...". However, the trouble seems to come when I miss the flush draw and hit the split Ace on the board. I know it's hard, but I generally refuse to play for more than one bet with the missed flush draw. This may be a terrible way to look at it, but with A5s, and another Ace on the board, you're just gonna get your butt kicked too often to make it worthwhile.
That's my opinion... and I'm stickin' to it!

[elmitchbo]

i actually did blow the first one. that was supposed to be A9s vs. 77. as for the rest, go to the chart and look.
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...hp?order=value

i'll give you a head start on my examples:

hand/ev vs. hand /ev
A9s/.18 vs. 99/.38
A9s/.18 vs. 77/.16
A4s/.06 vs. 44/-.03
ATs/.33 vs. QJs/.23
A5s/.08 vs. 66/.07
ATs/.33 vs. AQ/.31
A4s/.06 vs. 87s/-.02

i'm not confused, just made one typo. with that one correction, and the addition of the 77 example, you can see that the suited aces do have more EV preflop.