ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[dtown_poker]

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The other accounts I used never had any big MTT scores. Combined, I am pretty sure they were all long-term losers in the few MTT’s they played. Despite this, almost $100,000 was seized from my accounts.


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Sorry if there's already a comment about this in the 1500 posts I didn't read, but does anyone else find this part interesting?

I don't have any idea how many tourneys he played with these other accounts, but it does seem strange to me that ALL of his big scores were apparently with his own account. Could be a strange coincidence, but it seems like the more likely reason is that if he ever got to a point in a tourney where 2 entries were left and it made sense to dump chips that he made it a point to chipdump to his "known" account.

That's what I'd do...more glory & you don't have to worry about what not to say on the forums.

I dunno...maybe he just ran poorly with all the other accounts and they truly were losers, or maybe he tried to fund his "known" account when he had the chance which made the other accounts losers. I have no proof of either, but I tend to believe the latter at least contributed based on the things I do know.

That's what

[Clarkmeister]

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However, when I found out some people I knew were doing it (and it was more like being peripherally aware that this was going on), I let people temporarily convince me that it wasn't as bad as it seemed while I debated the issue with them. In other words, I didn't think what they were doing was similar to dropping a bomb the next day, raping an old woman or robbing a bank. The problem didn't seem to warrant my special attention, beyond my willingness to hold my belief that when a good player enters two or more accounts in the same tournament, it is to the severe detriment of average players.


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I felt exactly the same way. My position has changed a lot since then.

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So, you admit that multi-accounting existed in a formerly gray areas of ethics that is now much more black-and-white BECAUSE of the JJP/ZJ scandals?

That's kind of what I was trying to say a long while back.

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It was only a gray area to those without a real understanding of right and wrong.

[Clarkmeister]

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I play poker for a living, Mr Morality. Shockingly, I am not jealous of kids like these.

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Good post. This part should be obvious to everyone, but I think it's telling that it isn't. It's kind of a shame actually - and part of the problem.

[Clarkmeister]

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Exitonly writes:
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it's not HIS responsibility to make the poker world free of corruption.

your problem shouuld be w/ the pokerooms themselves and they're effort to find the cheats.

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So if I stand by and watch a friend break into your house and steal your stuff, your problem wouldn't be with me for standing by and watching and doing nothing about it...it would be with your lock manufacturer for not making a stronger lock that can't be broken??

Weak.

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[suzzer99]

One last thought I had for BluffThis and all the curtains et al bashers. I find it *more* telling that ZJ did go to curtains as something of an ethical guide. Curtains has never shown anything in the hundreds of posts I've read by him to be anything other than an extremely honest poker player and upstanding citizen. I would probably go to him as well if I had some ethical quandry about poker.

Now if I thought curtains was going to rat me out, even for just bringing up the idea (not that I have one - no inferences plz), forget it. Lori's point, and some others, is that when someone comes to you in confidence with a potential misdeed, it's a little different than stumbling across one from a complete stranger. It's *sort of* like the patient-client privelege that when exists you're the psychiatrist and the patient confides something in you. The reason psychiatrists can't rat out anything other than the worst offenses, is that if they did, there would be no psychiatrists. These people wouldn't even try to get help, and they and society would be the worse off for it.

I'm not saying this is completely analagous to a patient/psychiatrist situation. I'm just saying there are some elements of it. This is the whole "tough dilemma" part of the equation the confidees are going through--that most people seem to grasp inuitively--but a few of you seen to be struggling with mightily. "How serious is this offense?" vs. "How much trust has this person put in me?" "Can I talk them out of it somehow?" "What is my obligation?" "Will anyone ever come to me in confidence again for fear of being ratted out?" Etc. These are all extremely valid questions you have to ask yourself when/if something like this comes up. Obviously if it's something like child molestation, the answer is simple. Potential poker cheating? Serious, but worth breaching the trust of possibly an entire community of poker players + all the other questions above? That's a personal decision. Anyone trying to make it otherwise has never real faced much real life IMO.

So that's from the confidee's (if that's a word) POV. For the poker community as a whole, think of it like this: if young, impressionable poker players can't come to the elder statesman with these kinds of quandries--w/o fear of getting instantly ratted out--then they'll probably just keep it all bottled up inside where the rationalizations can really flourish. Can you see how this would be bad for poker as a whole? At lease ZJ tried to seek out some guidance, I give him credit for that. But he chose not to listen to it, and for that he deserves everything he's getting.


As an aside, I know I'm being melodramatic on this. But I really am a little nervous this will turn him over to the dark side for good, and that reaching out to curtains was one of the last attempts at taking the high road. ZJ is a smart dude, just think if he decided to become completely evil? From his POV we all probably just went from being his biggest fanboys to turning on him on a dime. Lots of motivation and fuel to rationalize just about anythingthere. Muha muah MUHAHAHHAHAHA!!!

[BluffTHIS!]

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I find it *more* telling that ZJ did go to curtains as something of an ethical guide.

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Since you brought me up, I feel compelled to ask a couple questions about your quote above.

Is that what really happened? ZJ felt pangs of conscience and asked for ethical advice?

Or were they just having a strategy discussion of the most +EV ways to win regardless of ethics?


I am not implying that curtains' statements that he told ZJ such practices were wrong is not true, but I am questioning the context in which they occurred, not with just ZJ and curtains, but with other cheaters discussing their cheating with other posters here who continue to protect their identities and allow them to continue to steal from all of you.

[perrier]

[pokerstudAA]

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ALL of his big scores were apparently with his own account. Could be a strange coincidence, but it seems like the more likely reason is that if he ever got to a point in a tourney where 2 entries were left and it made sense to dump chips that he made it a point to chipdump to his "known" account.

That's what I'd do...more glory & you don't have to worry about what not to say on the forums.


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I think this is dead-on. Then when the JJProdigy story broke Zee got concerned and consulted with curtains? Or do we believe Zee had this "ethical-dilemma" prior to the multi-account fuss began.....

[Roland32]

just so I am not the only one who did not post in this thread.
Cheating is bad

[BluffTHIS!]

I want to say something else regarding the "moral dilemma" of those aware of cheaters. I do realize that when those people first found out, that they might have been somewhat stunned, and the fact that they told the cheaters they were wrong is in fact commendable. But the question is about right now and those cheaters who are still cheating and stealing, and not the cheating and stealing that was done in the past.

If you had a friend who everyday followed an old lady to a park bench where he knew she sat and fed the pigeons everyday, and when she wasn't looking reached in her purse and stole $10, then you might be stunned the first time you saw it and remostrate with him about it. But when he brushes those admonitions off and day in and day out, keeps going down to the bench to steal from that old lady, it becomes a far greater issue than a one time occurrence.

So what should such an honest friend do?

The very very least he could do is diassociate himself from that friend and have nothing further to do with him. Ethical people only willingly associate with same.

The next lesser thing he could do would be to come here and make a generic thread warning that cheating is going on and detailing the extent of it known to him without mentioning names.

The next thing higher up the ladder would be to give an ultimatum to his friends to stop their cheating immediately or be turned in, and then follow that up if they didn't.


But doing absolutely NOTHING about ONGOING cheating/stealing, is totally cowardly and unethical itself.