The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?

[NT!]

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But your logic doesn't even make sense.

Vick ISN'T EVEN CHARGED with "torturing a dog" or "murdering a dog," he's charged with conspiracy, operating a dogfighting ring, running a gambling house, etc. So there aren't 20 counts of dog assault in the indictment.

You're really being ridiculous here. If I were caught on tape assaulting 20 women, I'd be charged with 20 counts of assault.

Plus, it's not like you get charged for more offenses just because you've been doing it a long time. You get charged for more offenses for committing more crimes, over that period of time.

Logic?

This is Vick's only charge for an ongoing criminal enterprise. Repeat, he is not charged for killing or torturing animals.

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Vick was accused of killing at least eight separate dogs himself. How is that not 8 separate charges? How is that different from beating up eight separate women, or robbing eight separate banks, or getting eight speeding tickets? How can you argue that he isn't charged with doing this when three of his accomplices have testified that he did? Are you just completely impervious to facts?

Racketeering and conspiracy and things like that do change based on the length of time you participated in the criminal enterprise. For each separate criminal act you conspired to organize or perpetrate, you get a conspiracy charge. So if you organized ten dog fights (each of which is a criminal act in and of itself), you get ten counts of conspiracy (if the case can be made, of course). So yes, actually, the length of time that you are involved in the criminal enterprise does effect the severity of the charges. But again, these are actual facts, don't let them get in the way of your argument that dogs aren't that big a deal or anything.

[Blarg]

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where do you keep pulling this "hundreds of animals" number from? The cnn article says:

and that the three men "executed approximately eight dogs"

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There were facilties for many more dogs, and dozens more on the property. It would be quite a stretch to imagine those dogs were not going to be used for the same purposes, with the same results. It would also be hard to imagine that someone who bought a property just to raise and fight dogs in and then built up facilities for that purpose intended to do it with only one crop of dogs. This was obviously intended to be an ongoing enterprise.

[dknightx]

Question. So i set up a meat factory where, instead of raising and then brutally killing the cows, i allow the cows to fight to the death (maybe take a side bet or two), and then process and sell the meat of the cow that loses. Would that be the better, worse, or same as this situation?

[NT!]

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Question. So i set up a meat factory where, instead of raising and then brutally killing the cows, i allow the cows to fight to the death (maybe take a side bet or two), and then process and sell the meat of the cow that loses. Would that be the better, worse, or same as this situation?

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Stop derailing the thread. No more posts about cows, or chickens, or any of this crap. Next person gets temp banned.

[Boris]

NT - I'm sure all the hippy chicks really love your sensitive attitude. My argument is not that going to one dog fight is the same as slapping 5 bitches and therefore the punishment should be the same. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of being extremely morally outraged about dog fighting given the way our society treats animals.

[Boris]

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Question. So i set up a meat factory where, instead of raising and then brutally killing the cows, i allow the cows to fight to the death (maybe take a side bet or two), and then process and sell the meat of the cow that loses. Would that be the better, worse, or same as this situation?

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Stop derailing the thread. No more posts about cows, or chickens, or any of this crap. Next person gets temp banned.

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NT - you should not be a mod.

[NT!]

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NT - I'm sure all the hippy chicks really love your sensitive attitude. My argument is not that going to one dog fight is the same as slapping 5 bitches and therefore the punishment should be the same. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of being extremely morally outraged about dog fighting given the way our society treats animals.

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i agree that if you support things like factory farmed meat it is a little ridiculous to get up in arms about dog fighting. the distinctions that are drawn (food vs. entertainment) are flimsy at best in my eyes. that's why i try not to support either.

[MacGuyV]

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I'm a dog lover, and I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that this guy's life is completely ruined by all of this. At first glance, it does seem disproportionate. Mostly I think it's because he has so much more to lose than some random dude who's organizing dog fights. Your typical dog fighter probably has already done time and doesn't have a day job (I imagine), so getting busted and losing "everything" doesn't mean that much. It doesn't make what Vick did any worse than somebody else, but it makes it so much more colossally stupid it's unbelievable.

Also, remember that if the allegations are true, it's not like Vick went out one day and attended a dog fight and now it's all coming crashing down. If I understand the allegations correctly he bought property dedicated to the purpose of dog fighting, had people on salary managing the day-to-day of the operation, personally bought and killed dogs in the practice of the operation, provided all the money including that used for the gambling side of it, etc etc etc. To do all of this over an extended period of time and not either stop because of the morality of it OR because of the risk to your career is mind-boggling.

Because of this I think what he did IS way worse than having a few too many and driving a car, for instance. Probably 5,000,000 people did that this weekend. Also, Ray Lewis wasn't convicted of anything. If he had been, things would be different for him (and again, I'm assuming that Vick is doing time). If you want to argue that he's been convicted by the media and the public without getting his fair day in court, so be it. But prior to being acquitted I think Lewis was getting a pretty fair share of heat.

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I guess there was nowhere for the thread to go but down from here...great post.
My only quibble is I don't think Lewis took nearly enough heat.

[snes chalmers]

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A local radio meathead here actually said that what Vick was accused of was way worse than what Kobe was accused of.

WTF.

I think it's worse to rape one woman than to torture and kill all the dogs on earth.

Vick is a scumbag if he ran a dogfighting ring, but he's far less of a scumbag than someone like, say, Warren Moon, who beat the living [censored] out of his wife to the point that his child said 'my daddy is killing my mommy' to the 911 operator. Moon is in the Hall of Fame, Vick's career is over.

Something's not right here.

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I'd rather see DrewDevil tortured and killed than see anything happen to my dog. But hey, that's just me.

[PropMike]

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Go visit a corporate farm where they raise pigs, cattle, chickens, turkeys, etc... Those animals don't live anything remotely close to a humane existence. So unless you are a vegan card carrying member of PETA, I could care less about the moral outrage.

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well, some of us do attempt to spend our money on cruelty-free foods and avoid buying factory meat. but even then, this is a terrible argument, because there is at least a constructive reason for those animals to be killed (for food).

this is the same terrible, poorly thought out response that people are always making. every situation involving animals or violence does not directly translate to this one. it is a nuanced and specific instance that requires critical thought and response. all this "well it's not as bad as beating up a woman," or "it's just the same as killing cows for food" crap is 5th grade logic at best.

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Well, humans are omnivores, so animals are bred and slaughtered in factory farms for, if not our 'entertainment,' our indulgence. I don't think the parallel is far fetched at all.

With that said I'm a meat eater and find dog fighting despicable. I'm just not sure there's not an inconsistency there.

Edit: oops, quoted the wrong post.