Fossilman's Account Hacked?

[JoaoPinto]

I’d love to see the attitude of these 7 “Stars” in 5 years time. With 5 new WSOP champions who will want to use the “Image” of Raymer or Hachem. As for Bloch, Duke, Lederer , Gordon and Ferguson with a new breed of more talented and more interesting 20 something players entering the scene every year they will soon find themselves B list poker “celebs” (Lederer and Gordon are already there). No one forced them to sign the agreement with the WPT and no-one forces them to play in the events. They are all already Multi Millionaires but yet want to squeeze more cash for themselves out of poker fans like us.

Also Greg should show a bit more respect to Daniel. He is a genuine poker great who built his reputation over years of play as opposed to luck boxing one tournament.

[NicksDad1970]

I respect Daniel as well as Greg. Greg has always taken the time to educate me when I ask him about hands etc.

I don't know much about the lawsuit. Meaning I don't know how it could affect players either way.

The one thing that I think Daniel should have done is gone to the 7 players and asked them about it before going public. I also think the 7 should have gone to the poker community and told them of their intentions. (I don't know that they didn't but DN says he wasn't contacted so I'll assume many more weren't)

Having said all that if the outcome of this lawsuit has a possible severe effect on all poker players then DN certainly has the right to be as vocal about his opinions as anyone else.

I don't think the fact that DN hasn't been to law school should exclude him from being able to voice his opinion. Anyone who cares about poker and this lawsuit should do their own investigating on all parties background to see if the person saying something has the knowledge to comment.

I also think it was pretty cool of Greg to admit he probably shouldn't have made some of the statements that he said.

Both guys are classy IMHO but I think they both could have handled themselves a little differently.

[mattnxtc]

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Greenstein, Dn and so forth would be considered much better cash game players but since we are talkin tournaments Hellmuth is at the top...Will he be passed one day? probably

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Greenstein's game is based on betting people off their hands. That won't work with donkeys who are willing to call off all their money with top pair. Hellmuth just traps them and shows them the nuts. He made a living out of beating beginners. Greenstein made a living out of beating pros who are capable of making "great" laydowns.

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and?

this means greenstein is probably better suited for the high stakes he plays in cash games where as hellmuth adopted a style for the tournament donks.

I have nothing but respect for greenstein so dont think im knockin him in any way...id much prefer to be known as one of the best cash game players then one of the best tourney palyers

[West]

From the complaint:

"The Complaint alleges that WPTE and the casinos have unlawfully conspired to eliminate competition for the services and intellectual property rights of top, high stakes professional poker players. In particular, the Complaint alleges that the casinos have agreed with WPTE that they will not host any non-WPT televised poker tournaments."

[JoaoPinto]

The one thing that I think Daniel should have done is gone to the 7 players and asked them about it before going public.

He didn't exactly go public he just gave his opinion on his blog because he had been talking to Lyle Bernam about it the night before and it was on his mind. Greg Raymer's reaction to it was childish and pathetic.

One other thing about this how come the monster stars of poker are not behind this lawsuit? Phil Hellmuth, Doyle Brunson etc... no one makes more out of the poker industry than those two and they were happy to play in the last WPT event.

[sekrah]

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If anybody doesnt think that there is a bunch of greed on these 7's part then they are a bit naive.

With player like Hachem involved do you really think its about anything else? They can attempt to spin it however they want but with the timing of this they are completely spitting in the faces of all the other players they pretend to be protecting.

I find it interesting that with half of the 7 on the PPA board that they are taking time away from actually defending poker to fight this nonsense case. If they really cared about the other players and not about lining their own wallets they would be in Washington fighting for the players. Instead they are going to court for some stupid issue.

More likely i think they are tryin to cover themselves in case the online bill passes. If it does they can say bye bye to their endorsements and all that will be left is the WPT for major year round tournaments which if they are people of principle (which i doubt) they will have to avoid them which will cost them even more money.

Seriously if you want to take on the WPT thats fine. But doing it now just makes the 7 look like selfish jerks

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Umm.. Selfish for wanting to protect themselves from being a WPT slave for the rest of their lives?

Donk.

[West]

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The one thing that I think Daniel should have done is gone to the 7 players and asked them about it before going public.

He didn't exactly go public he just gave his opinion on his blog because he had been talking to Lyle Bernam about it the night before and it was on his mind.

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He's Daniel Negreanu - giving his opinion on his blog is "going public". Naturally, he has every right to do this.

Negreanu, Greenstein, Hellmuth, Brunson, etc. may see it as having no reason to care, unless the WPT ever chooses to piss them off by using their name in a way they don't want. IIRC, I've heard Negreanu mention this before, and basically say that he is confident in his relationship with the WPT and has been assured they won't do this to him (I swear I recall him taking the position that he shouldn't have to trust them before, in one of his old blogs). I think Greg and co.'s point is that they shouldn't have the right in the first place.

[Blizzardbaum]

Greg,

I was hoping you could answer a specific question about the WPT lawsuit that you (and several other professionals) have undertaken. The only reason I have addressed this to you specifically is because you have demonstrated a willingness to publicly defend the merits of the case to which you are party. I would understand completely your desire to maintain public silence while legal proceedings were ongoing.

My question relates to the difference between the arrangement the WPT seeks with poker players vís a vís image rights and the current arrangement that MLB, the NFL and the NBA has with their athletes. Those professional sports leagues market players for companies those players might not be involved with on an individual level. For instance, the Home Run Derby at the MLB all-star game is "brought to you" by Century 21. Players who participate do not have exclusive contracts with Century 21, but Century 21 still uses their names and images in promotional material- including print advertisement. For another example, EA Sports produces video games using the likeness of just about every player on a professional roster in every sport without compensating players on an individual level. EA Sports derives the right use the likenesses of these athletes through licensing contracts with the various commissioners' offices.

Those examples relate to team sports, which poker is decidedly not, but the PGA Tour also behaves similarly. Earlier this year, Tiger Woods won the Ford Championships at Doral in Florida, and Ford used his likeness in print both to promote the event before it occurred and to congratulate him in print for his victory. Tiger Woods, however, has an exclusive endorsement contract with Buick and regularly appears in commercials selling Buick automobiles in exchange for compensation.

If I misunderstand the nature of the arrangements between professional athletes and their governing bodies in other sports, please correct me. Or, if there is some distinction I am missing with regard to the WPT and players who compete in WPT events, please explain it. At present, however, I do not see how the arrangement the WPT seeks differs from the status quo in other professional sports leagues.

Respectfully,

[West]

Do you work for the WPT too?

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No one forced them to sign the agreement with the WPT and no-one forces them to play in the events.

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"The Complaint alleges that WPTE and the casinos have unlawfully conspired to eliminate competition for the services and intellectual property rights of top, high stakes professional poker players. In particular, the Complaint alleges that the casinos have agreed with WPTE that they will not host any non-WPT televised poker tournaments."

I'm not a lawyer, but I think this is why it's considered an antitrust lawsuit.

In other words, if the option were available for someone to negotiate with the same casinos that host WPT events to produce other televised tournaments, then they would be "fine" with choosing whether or not to play on the WPT and sign the release forms.

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They are all already Multi Millionaires but yet want to squeeze more cash for themselves out of poker fans like us.

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lol

[Greg (FossilMan)]

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So one last thing with regards to the WSOP contracts vs. the WPT contracts. The WPT has stated that they will happily acknowledge the WSOP contracts as a legitimate substitute for the current contracts they (the WPT) have in place for their own events, so isn't that enough then? If indeed the WSOP contracts are better then the current WPT contracts?

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As far as I know, the WPT has not said this. Daniel said that Lyle said this, but I know of nothing other than that. I doubt we can bind the WPT with those statements. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)