To the Multi-Accounters : some thoughts before this upcoming Sunday

[MLG]

yeah, im pretty much 100% with UCLA here. Although I don't fault Jeff for his post. I think its a good first step (again) for him to bring this to light. I kind of view it as a PSA for the vast vast majority of players. However, it just doesnt go far enough. That's not to say its solely Jeff's responsibility...its not, its everybody's. I think targeting Jeff, specifically as not doing enough is unfair, because there are lots of players who dont do enough (and Jeff was good enough to make the issue public again, and open himself up to criticism).

Additionally, the idea that multi-accounters shouldnt be reported to sites because it wouldn't do any good/they'd be back online quickly is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, and sounds to me a lot like a thin justification from the minds of people who are friends with cheaters and want to avoid doing the right thing. The fact is, if you want to change the culture surrounding this (and people here are claiming they do) then you take all possible actions through all possible channels. Reporting them has tangible monetary effects, even if the are only barred for the short-term. Sure you can tell them its wrong, all you want, and shun them, or threaten them, but if you dont report them you are tacitly accepting their actions, and that undermines everything we claim we want to achieve.

[A_Junglen]

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Stars has done far more than you know in battling multiaccounting.

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How do you know?

You should see that claiming you know Stars ostensibly clandestine procedures (which I call "clandestine" because apparently you know them but ucla/the player community at large doesn't) for catching multi-accounters makes this thread even more shady.

How would you come about such knowledge? I would question the wisdom of Stars security team telling anyone who isn't a Stars employee about all the measures they take to combat multi-accounting. So why are Stars employees giving out this information to only a select few such as yourself? Why is that ucla isn't aware of all that Stars has done to battle multi-accounting, but *you* are?

Look, I'm not suggesting we start a witch hunt. And I'm not a high limit MTTer. But I'm going to submit that this thread and threads like it do nothing but make most of you appear to be part of a cabal of players who sit in private AIM chatrooms on Sunday, where you enter in multiple accounts in the big Sundays and play hands together via AIM chat with your friends, as your Stars-employee-buddies share the inside story on exactly how they catch multi-accounters (so that you might be better able to circumvent their security measures).

This obviously isn't true, and it's certainly not my point of view, but the online poker world is full of cynical outsiders looking to demonstrate how rigged the industry is, and in these threads, you guys give them plenty of ammo.

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How would I know such knowledge?

Casual observation you clown. When one of the best players on PokerStars disappears for a year he just MIGHT have gotten caught multiaccounting. JUST A HUNCH. (Sorry btw, but I have to defend myself against these retarded implications)

Jesus [censored] christ. Everyone's so [censored] paranoid.

[DVaut1]

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How would I know such knowledge?

Casual observation you clown. When one of the best players on PokerStars disappears for a year he just MIGHT have gotten caught multiaccounting. JUST A HUNCH. (Sorry btw, but I have to defend myself against these retarded implications)

Jesus [censored] christ. Everyone's so [censored] paranoid.

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Given that you concede everyone is so paranoid (apparently with good reason) -- why give "everyone" ammo?

I'm not sure why, when one of the best players on PokerStars disappears for a year, we'd assume he got banned for multi-accounting. Maybe he just changed his ID: isn't that something many of the best players do -- or at least attempt to do?

And if it's just "casual observation" that could lead us to believe Stars is doing alot to battle mutli-accounters, then why is it that information would be unavailable to ucla? Recall that you said Stars was doing "far more than (ucla) knows". If it's a really simple thing that any clown could deduce and figure out, as you sarcastically imply, then surely ucla would know as much as you do about what Stars is doing to battle multi-accounters.

Again, the implication we could draw here is that *you* know something which ucla doesn't. I think it would serve you all very well if you chose your words more carefully, and thought long and hard about what kind of image is getting projected here.

Again, take this as advice from one of the guys who isn't part of the high-stakes MTT 2p2 clique: to an outsider like me, much of what you say makes many of you appear to be awfully shady. Now, I've been around these forums for a while now, so I'm better equipped than most casual players to understand that the situation isn't quite as underhanded as it appears. But not everyone is going to come to the same conclusions I do. As you say, everyone is "so paranoid". So my advice is: tread carefully. I have a regular day-job; poker is just a hobby for me. It's your profession, not mine.

[MLG]

Adam,
you are being extremely disingenuous. alluding to a piece of inside information that you have from somebody in the poker community and presenting it as if anyody who paid attention could have it makes you come across quite badly.

[uclabruinz]

By the way, what Stars is doing is tangential to the main issue. Obviously, based on what Jeff, Adanthar, and others are saying, multiaccounting is a huge problem. Whatever Stars is doing (which hopefully is everything they can), it isn't enough to combat the problem. The poker community in general has an obligation to protect the integrity of the game.

I know I have been very harsh on Jeff. Perhaps his motives behind the OP are better or more pure then I have been giving him credit for. But, as MLG points out, he has an obligation to do more if he really does care about the integrity of the game in general as he implies he does.

I do realize Jeff has put himself out there, but in doing so he has become representative of everyone out there in the community who knows it's wrong and does nothing or too little about it. As I have said before, Jeff's motive is that he like the cheaters personally and doesn't want to harm them. I find that a poor excuse for not doing what is clearly the ethical thing.

[djk123]

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Stars has done far more than you know in battling multiaccounting.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know?

You should see that claiming you know Stars ostensibly clandestine procedures (which I call "clandestine" because apparently you know them but ucla/the player community at large doesn't) for catching multi-accounters makes this thread even more shady.

How would you come about such knowledge? I would question the wisdom of Stars security team telling anyone who isn't a Stars employee about all the measures they take to combat multi-accounting. So why are Stars employees giving out this information to only a select few such as yourself? Why is that ucla isn't aware of all that Stars has done to battle multi-accounting, but *you* are?

Look, I'm not suggesting we start a witch hunt. And I'm not a high limit MTTer. But I'm going to submit that this thread and threads like it do nothing but make most of you appear to be part of a cabal of players who sit in private AIM chatrooms on Sunday, where you enter in multiple accounts in the big Sundays and play hands together via AIM chat with your friends, as your Stars-employee-buddies share the inside story on exactly how they catch multi-accounters (so that you might be better able to circumvent their security measures).

This obviously isn't true, and it's certainly not my point of view, but the online poker world is full of cynical outsiders looking to demonstrate how rigged the industry is, and in these threads, you guys give them plenty of ammo.

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How would I know such knowledge?

Casual observation you clown. When one of the best players on PokerStars disappears for a year he just MIGHT have gotten caught multiaccounting. JUST A HUNCH. (Sorry btw, but I have to defend myself against these retarded implications)

Jesus [censored] christ. Everyone's so [censored] paranoid.

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Who?

[stealthmunk]

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Stars has done far more than you know in battling multiaccounting.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know?

You should see that claiming you know Stars ostensibly clandestine procedures (which I call "clandestine" because apparently you know them but ucla/the player community at large doesn't) for catching multi-accounters makes this thread even more shady.

How would you come about such knowledge? I would question the wisdom of Stars security team telling anyone who isn't a Stars employee about all the measures they take to combat multi-accounting. So why are Stars employees giving out this information to only a select few such as yourself? Why is that ucla isn't aware of all that Stars has done to battle multi-accounting, but *you* are?

Look, I'm not suggesting we start a witch hunt. And I'm not a high limit MTTer. But I'm going to submit that this thread and threads like it do nothing but make most of you appear to be part of a cabal of players who sit in private AIM chatrooms on Sunday, where you enter in multiple accounts in the big Sundays and play hands together via AIM chat with your friends, as your Stars-employee-buddies share the inside story on exactly how they catch multi-accounters (so that you might be better able to circumvent their security measures).

This obviously isn't true, and it's certainly not my point of view, but the online poker world is full of cynical outsiders looking to demonstrate how rigged the industry is, and in these threads, you guys give them plenty of ammo.

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How would I know such knowledge?

Casual observation you clown. When one of the best players on PokerStars disappears for a year he just MIGHT have gotten caught multiaccounting. JUST A HUNCH. (Sorry btw, but I have to defend myself against these retarded implications)

Jesus [censored] christ. Everyone's so [censored] paranoid.

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Redsoxsox got banned for multiaccounting.

It is common knowledge.

Also, Jeff claimed to me once he beat redsoxsox/a multiaccount of his 3handed in the 109r on two separate occasions.

Pretty ill accomplishment by Jeff I guess lolz.

[A_Junglen]

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And if it's just "casual observation" that could lead us to believe Stars is doing alot to battle mutli-accounters, then why is it that information would be unavailable to ucla? Recall that you said Stars was doing "far more than (ucla) knows". If it's a really simple thing that any clown could deduce and figure out, as you sarcastically imply, then surely ucla would know as much as you do about what Stars is doing to battle multi-accounters.

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Why would PS want to publically announce they've banned accounts for multiaccounting? Seems like pretty bad PR to me.

How do I know this? After traveling to Dublin, Bahamas, Australia, Monte Carlo and other major events I've talked to many PokerStars representatives. I'm incredibly well networked, and poker is my life. Poker is a part of UCLA's life, but I'd like to think I spend a bit more time on it.

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Again, the implication we could draw here is that *you* know something which ucla doesn't. I think it would serve you all very well if you chose your words more carefully, and thought long and hard about what kind of image is getting projected here.

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You're probably right, but this entire thread is frustrating me. I'm done with it.


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[DVaut1]

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By the way, what Stars is doing is tangential to the main issue. Obviously, based on what Jeff, Adanthar, and others are saying, multiaccounting is a huge problem. Whatever Stars is doing (which hopefully is everything they can), it isn't enough to combat the problem. The poker community in general has an obligation to protect the integrity of the game.

I know I have been very harsh on Jeff. Perhaps his motives behind the OP are better or more pure then I have been giving him credit for. But, as MLG points out, he has an obligation to do more if he really does care about the integrity of the game in general as he implies he does.

I do realize Jeff has put himself out there, but in doing so he has become representative of everyone out there in the community who knows it's wrong and does nothing or too little about it. As I have said before, Jeff's motive is that he like the cheaters personally and doesn't want to harm them. I find that a poor excuse for not doing what is clearly the ethical thing.

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I can somewhat understand Jeff's motivation not wanting to "rat out" a friend. I'm not saying I agree with his decision not to inform the sites of his friends who mutli-account, but I can at least empathize with him.

Given that, though, I'm not sure why Jeff started this thread in the first place. IMO, it will do nothing but alarm everyone about a practice that is essentially going undeterred, and will continue to go undeterred. Good players and informed players are seemingly well aware it goes on, and bad players/casual players can really do nothing but get paranoid/upset and grow distrustful. IMO, paranoid/upset/distrustful players don't make good donors.

So if people "in-the-know" aren't going to do (what I would consider) to be the ethical thing by informing the sites of known cheaters, then at least make a +EV decision and not get everyone all upset and paranoid (in other words, don't start this thread). Just my two cents.

[DVaut1]

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How do I know this? After traveling to Dublin, Bahamas, Australia, Monte Carlo and other major events I've talked to many PokerStars representatives. I'm incredibly well networked, and poker is my life.

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I understand. I think we agree about the facts: you're a well-networked poker player with access to information that most of us don't have. I just think admitting that you're very well networked with Stars reps and others in the poker community is questionable, at best. Given the climate, which you admit is teeming with paranoia, the inevitable accusation/suspicion will be that you (not you ajunglen specifically -- but you the high limit 2p2 MTT community) will use this network for nefarious purposes.

So, perhaps it's wise to not advertise all that which you know and others don't.