Coaching WARNING

[thac]

What about an analogy about tuition (which is more relevant than a construction job)? You pay for a semester of tuition (5 sessions with snowbank) and say you drop out because you can't afford to commute there anymore... you DON'T get that money back. Even if you were unsatisfied with the classes there, you can not get a refund there.. how is that any different than this situation?

[steel108]

I was actually considering PMing Snowbank about coaching, but after this thread, I would be an idiot. He actually charges the same as 3bet coaches!!!!

BTW: he is a nice winner at 200NL; 5.6ptBB/100 (40k hands)... LMAO at 10 ptBB/100.....

[snowbank]

I'm surprised this post brought so much drama so quickly, coming from an OP who started the day with like 20 posts, before people on the board heard from me. Kind of disappointing since I've been posting for a long time, and have helped a lot of people will a lot of things(poker and non-poker)

OP begged me to coach him. Originally he would IM me every day to coach him on a % basis. He IMed me many times about this, each time I said I was not interested in doing that, but would be able to find a cheaper coach for him if he wanted. Again, OP was told many times by me, that it may be best for him to hire someone cheaper. He said that he decided he didn't want another coach, and wanted to go with me.

My bluntness to OP in the chat he posted was because this was about the 3rd time he had asked, first since I got home from out of town. He wanted to get rolled for decent stakes, after losing his roll playing over his head, not because he has bills to pay. Seems convenient to post that chat about having to pay bills when your story before was that you wanted to get rolled for your games again. From what you told me you are 28 years old and live on the beach in Puerto Rico. Much different from the poor teenager you are trying to portray by attempting to tarnish my image and get sympathy from people on an internet message board who didn't know the story.

Even before I had the first session with OP, after talking brief poker with him I told him to move down. He moved down to 100s.(If I remember correctly, you told me your winrate was .7ptbb/100 over a couple hundred thousand hands, not 1.7, although I could be mistaken) After the first session with OP, I told him he should probably drop to 50s, since that's what I felt by seeing him play/talking strategy with him. He dropped down and was doing well. Was telling me how excited he was after our first session, etc... IMed me ALL the time, to talk poker, etc... I have easily spent 5 hours with OP with all the times he IMs me to chat. I have talked to other 2p2ers who he has their sn, and they say that he IMs them all the time as well(so I know I'm not imagining it), and I'm sure he was doing it a lot more to me since I was coaching him. Like literally everytime I would come back from away, there he was. I never complained once to him about it.

OP was missing a LOT of basic things with poker. I told him to save hh's for review since imo that's one of the most important things to improving as a poker player. I asked him to review a minimum of 10 hhs a day on his own, and save a lot of the ones he struggled with for me to review with him. Next session he had 0 for review. He also was going to be posting quite a bit on 2p2 to improve on his own, which he didn't do. The reason I mention this is because OP wanted to put 0 work in, and be killing games in no time. He wanted to move up faster than he was ready for, etc... A couple weeks ago when we spoke our conversation went something like: me: "move down, you still aren't ready for those stakes." him: "okay". couple days later- him: "I moved up I was playing well, I lost it all, I'm broke." He was playing under rolled, and underskilled for where he was trying to play. I have spent more time talking to OP than any of my other students. For him asking for money after he lost his roll, by his own faults, especially after IMing me 24/7 is something I guess I might expect by someone who started the day with 20 posts.

A lot of my students have had their best months under me, and have said they picked up a lot from sessions we've had together. I talked to a few people before I decided that to refund him wasn't the right decision, even though I knew he would try to tarnish my reputation. The people that I talked to and explained the situation to agreed that they would not refund OP's money. I felt the same way, so since I took time to also get other people's thoughts on the matter, I felt/feel pretty confident that my decision was thought out, and the right one. Some people who have IMed me agreed with me that he didn't deserve a refund, but felt for business reasons it might be best to give him money. Business wise, decisions like that make sense, but I don't feel that I should go against what myself/and others I asked opinions of feel is correct, because this guy will try to tarnish my image if I do what I feel is correct. I know the OP is trying to portray me as someone that I'm not, and anyone who knows me knows this. I don't think I should make decisions based on what people will think about me when their opinion stems from someone with the character of OP.

[Jamougha]

[ QUOTE ]
And finally, can one of the "Snowbank shouldn't have to pay back the prepaid time" crew please explain, apart from saying that "pokersanjuan paid up front so tough titties" exactly why Snowbank should keep the cash?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that he *should keep* the money. It's that he's under no real legal or ethical obligation to pay it back.

OP got ripped off by paying waaay over the odds for someone with no reputation for coaching and committing to a ridiculous 5 hours up front with no idea what he was getting. Not because Snowbank isn't willing to refund the money.

Edit: I should obviously point out that this is mainly OP's fault.

[steel108]

Alot of people are defending Snowbank saying that he is a good guy. I'm sure he is a cool guy, fun to party with, and overall pretty chill.

The problem is this:

(1) He has bad buisness sense (at least with poker coaching)

(2) He charges ALOT and seems incompetent at it. It's great he gave someone rakeback and it's great his roommate thinks he is good, but looking at the chats, why would you not go with a reputable coach?

(3) His roommate said he was busy this past month... are you kidding me with that? He charges that much money and he is not available to his students bc he is busy? He should seriously cut his rate substantilly or get out of coaching bc that is a joke.

Honestly, this thread is a ringing endorsment for 3bet, cardrunners, etc.... I hope OP and snowbank work out their issues

[steel108]

[ QUOTE ]
What about an analogy about tuition (which is more relevant than a construction job)? You pay for a semester of tuition (5 sessions with snowbank) and say you drop out because you can't afford to commute there anymore... you DON'T get that money back. Even if you were unsatisfied with the classes there, you can not get a refund there.. how is that any different than this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most schools prorate your tuition; horrible argument.

[True]

I had a coaching experience with pokersanjuan. I gave him $50 for 10 hours up front and once the transfer was sent I didn't see him online once.

[tufat23]

he was busy this past month, he's been away in vegas yo

[MatthewRyan]

Anyone who thinks it is OK and fair for Snowback to keep the money is out of their mind. It is ethically and moraly wrong, it should not even be a debate!

Also, Snowback charges an OBSCENE amount of money for SSNL coaching. Now, anyone who is dumb enough to pay this money, well that is your own fault. There are coaches you beat 3/6+ that charge $50 an hour, they can be found on sites mentioned and msnl (I have used 2 different peopl at this rate).

Also, ANY GOOD COACH is not going to give some half ass coaching over aim - do NOT settle for such a low quality when you are paying beyond top dollar (again, stupid). You want a coach who will sweat you or at least discuss hands over the phone or skype.


Lastly, the fact that like 9879079798 people have responded before Snowbank (who knows about this thread) seems to reflect even more on his overall 'mode of operation'.

I'm earglier awaiting Snowbank's defense to save his repuation as a coach. And if it is "he paid upfront!!@1ZOMG" than please do not even bother posting.


Taylor C - you're a class act.

[Kermit]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks it is OK and fair for Snowback to keep the money is out of their mind. It is ethically and moraly wrong, it should not even be a debate!

Also, Snowback charges an OBSCENE amount of money for SSNL coaching. Now, anyone who is dumb enough to pay this money, well that is your own fault. There are coaches you beat 3/6+ that charge $50 an hour, they can be found on sites mentioned and msnl (I have used 2 different peopl at this rate).

Also, ANY GOOD COACH is not going to give some half ass coaching over aim - do NOT settle for such a low quality when you are paying beyond top dollar (again, stupid). You want a coach who will sweat you or at least discuss hands over the phone or skype.


Lastly, the fact that like 9879079798 people have responded before Snowbank (who knows about this thread) seems to reflect even more on his overall 'mode of operation'.

I'm earglier awaiting Snowbank's defense to save his repuation as a coach. And if it is "he paid upfront!!@1ZOMG" than please do not even bother posting.


Taylor C - you're a class act.

[/ QUOTE ]

entire post QFT