Tim Hardaway: "I hate gay people."

[aheravi]

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Turn the situation around. Say you have a 100% lesbian woman. She should shower with heterosexual men and not feel self conscious at all? I mean, she's not interested in them, so no big deal right? Alot if not most lesbian women would be VERY uncomfortable in this situation.

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Actually, a better analogy would be a lesbian showering with other women. Do you think you'd have the same level of angst?

[AbreuTime]

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The reason that women find it uncomfortable to have men showering in their locker rooms stems from hundreds of years of pervasive male sexual violence towards women and hundreds of years of objectification of women by men. This creates an atmosphere in which it is very uncomfortable for women to be placed in these types of situations with men. There is no such history of pervasive homosexual male sexual violence on heterosexual men.


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Is a fear of violence, felt by women, the reason for separate bathrooms? Is that the reason that men and women have separate showers, this fear? So "fear" felt by straight men is irrational and should not be a factor? What if they had received unwanted advances by gays before?

Separate bathrooms for men and women are not based soley on fear. And if it was, then you could easily make the case that Hardaway shouldn't have to shower with gays because he is afraid. But you and others imply that his fear is "irrational." Then, if you could prove that the fear felt by women is not rational, then you could make a case for unified bathrooms. But this doesn't seem like a possible solution, because fear cannot be explained away so easily.

I think the real reason to separate men from women was to separate the sexes based on sexual attraction, which was the basis for this fear. The cause for separation isn't "like parts," penises on one side and vaginas on another. The reason, related to your "fear" argument, is that men and women are generally attracted to each other and it not appropriate for them to shower together. If you argue that it is inappropriate due to fear, then it is inappropriate for gays and straights to shower together if one side has fear. The fear is caused by sexual attraction, not biological plumbing.

What I'm saying is that it is reasonable for Hardaway to feel uncomfortable to shower/get naked with gay men (even if it is not ok/pc to admit to HATING GAYS. Then again, I tend to take the stand that people are born with a propensity to be gay based on body chemistry/hormones, so I can't find fault with someone BEING gay. Unwanted advances on a straight person I could find fault with.)

[Colt McCoy]

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The reason that women find it uncomfortable to have men showering in their locker rooms stems from hundreds of years of pervasive male sexual violence towards women and hundreds of years of objectification of women by men. This creates an atmosphere in which it is very uncomfortable for women to be placed in these types of situations with men. There is no such history of pervasive homosexual male sexual violence on heterosexual men.

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1) This crap about the "history" of crimes against people. You're saying they're uncomfortable because they somehow have memories of being abused in past lives or what? They may be uncomfortable with it partly because of a fear that something will happen today, but this "hundreds of years" stuff is absolute crap, or perhaps all men should start making some kind of monetary reparations to women?

2) Yes, there is history of "pervasive homosexual male sexual violence on heterosexual men". Not that it at all matters with regard to this issue, but your knowledge of history is rusty.

[SomethingClever]

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Again, I ask this question, is it "ignorant" or "insane" for a woman to feel uncomfortable showering with heterosexual men?

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This analogy doesn't work and you should know better.

First of all, to make the proportions correct, it would be one heterosexual man showering with many women.

The scenario as you have phrased it... one woman showering with many men at once... well, it should be clear why most women would be uncomfortable with this. And it's different from the reasons why straight men would feel uncomfortable with one gay man in the shower.

FWIW I'm not a big fan of showering with other men, period. However, if it was a large group like a sports team and one or two of them were gay, I don't see that making me any less comfortable.

[SomethingClever]

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Jerome Kersey?

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Not Kersey, unless he's bi.

[DrewDevil]

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Again, I ask this question, is it "ignorant" or "insane" for a woman to feel uncomfortable showering with heterosexual men?

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This analogy doesn't work and you should know better.

First of all, to make the proportions correct, it would be one heterosexual man showering with many women.

The scenario as you have phrased it... one woman showering with many men at once... well, it should be clear why most women would be uncomfortable with this. And it's different from the reasons why straight men would feel uncomfortable with one gay man in the shower.

FWIW I'm not a big fan of showering with other men, period. However, if it was a large group like a sports team and one or two of them were gay, I don't see that making me any less comfortable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know better, maybe you can explain it to me.

Why is it ignorant, insane or unenlightened for a man not to want to shower with a gay man, but not so for a woman uncomfortable showering with a straight man? Why are they different?

I'm not sure what you're saying about a lot of men vs. one man in the shower, either.

[kidcolin]

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has anyone mentioned the killer cross-over yet?

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yeah my first post in this thread. I also looked up a bunch of youtube vids. You should too.. great stuff.

[Colt McCoy]

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First of all, to make the proportions correct, it would be one heterosexual man showering with many women.

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Agreed. So you don't think women would be uncomfortable with this?

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However, if it was a large group like a sports team and one or two of them were gay, I don't see that making me any less comfortable.

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I don't know that it would make me uncomfortable either, but does that mean that the discomfort felt by others is invalid?

[Aloysius]

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Would I be uncomfortable showering with a gay person watching me? = yes

Should rules be put in place because of my discomfort? = no

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I think this is the standard NBA player response to this. Which is fine - again I think this is about tolerance and understanding - listen again to Hardaway's rant. I would bet that alot of NBA players, gun to the head, think something like that. You can't *force* someone to change their views on gay people - you can only educate them and over time maybe they will understand.

No one (I don't think, except perhaps UATregawaz) is saying that the standard male hetero response of fear of showering with a gay man is the optimal / most progressive line but it is what it is. And you can't just ignore this.

What if the team were to take a vote (the people actually showering with teh gay teammate) - and it came out overwhelmingly in favor of "ostracizing" the gay player? So now he gets, I donno, a separate shower stall or a curtain or something? Is this really that big a deal?

There are larger issues facing the gay community that need to be addressed - it's just a shower. And, from the gay teammates perspective... I bet it's possible he wouldn't mind privacy while showering, and not dealing with the potential hostility engendered by showering with his straight teammates.

-Al

[UATrewqaz]

Thank you for telling me the optimal way I should feel.

It's very kind of you to share the knowledge you've gained in your ultra evolved, progressive state with the rest of us.