ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[Wayfare]

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You think what ZJ did is wrong in bold, others think pokertracker is wrong in bold, and even more think that poker in general is wrong. Without logical reasons for why X is more/less wrong than Y, this is (to quote Lebowski) just like, your opinion man.

Don't pretend that there is some objective moral standard that includes just what you want as moral and everything else as immoral. That's just a self-serving farce.

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This is absurd. There is no grey area here. There is no argument to justify what happened. Stealing from strangers who have done you no wrong, when you don't need money is WRONG. That is an opinion held by 99.99 percent of the population. That is what ZJ did.

I'm appalled at how many people think ZJ did this just to have more entries, or it wasn't much more ev, or that he didn't collude when he got to the same tables. You guys are either attempting to justify some of you own actions in this backward manner, or have truly been fooled and blinded by this CON-ARTIST.

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I very much agree it's wrong. That is irrelevent to my above post. Do you see why?

[ackbleh]

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The hypocrisy is condemning something then giving business to a company that hasn't taken a strong stance against it.

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I'm not sure Sears has ever taken a strong public stance against the violence in Darfur. I'm not cool with genocide. Therefore it is hypocritical of me to purchase Craftsman products.

Obviously this isn't what you're saying, but my point is that your criterion up there is quite vague. Cheating goes on in internet poker. Is any site really doing everything imaginably possible to catch colluders? Should I refuse to give them business because of it? I think this mentality says that I should boycott poker altogether, pretty much.

I think Stars has very solid customer service, and they have been responsive when I have brought concerns to them before. Party has a reputation for being bad on this front, which is one reason I don't play there. While Stars may not be doing quite as much as I may like to curb MTT cheating, that doesn't make them immoral, nor does it mean that I'm supporting cheating, in my view. Particularly since about the only MTTs I play with any regularity are 2+2 ones.

EDIT: Also, Stars response on the multiplayering front was months ago, wasn't it? In light of all of this recent garbage I'd be surprised if they didn't change their tune.

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stars has great customer service on most issues. Their staff are highly qualified, well trained, and good people. If I send them a question for 'poker investigation', I'm confident that someone who actually grasps the situation will look into it... quite the opposite of what I'd say about Party.

The general quality of their support staff and handling the issues they're directed to handle is a very separate issue from the SCOPE of what they've decided to police. They don't currently have the tools to detect multiple accounts effectively. I'm guessing that they asked their developers what it would take to improve functionality in this area and were told it would take a lot of work and not be perfect. Since this issue doesn't affect their rake and in the past was not getting much publicity, they shrugged their shoulders and prioritized other development instead, development that affects their bottom line by making internal procedures more efficient or offering more types of tournaments.

The alternative would have been to place a high priority on the integrity of the game, bite the bullet, and put the time, money, and effort into developing a solution. The reason I and others are hammering Stars on this rather than party is that it's well known that Party doesn't give a crap about this stuff. They care only about the $$. Stars has taken the same tack on this issue but has somehow managed to keep their reputation of being focused on game integrity. I think what most of us would like to see is them recognize the shortcoming, address it thoroughly, and resume their role as the site well-informed consumers trust the most with their money.

[lapoker17]

i wasn’t going to post anything, because this thread is already out of control – and by out of control, I mean awesome, but anyway…

when you play a lot of live poker at higher stakes, you encounter quite a range of people – drug dealers, loan sharks, thieves, whores, everything. action people are drawn to action. it would be quite normal to make assumptions about the ethics of these types – i mean, they break the law for a living, how ethical could they be?

the funny thing i have learned, is that by and large, when put into the context of a poker game, these people show a remarkable sense of fairness and honor. sure there are angle shooters occasionally, but they are by far the exception. my point is, i guess, that i have come to know that those who cheat at poker are almost always the lowest of the low in their view of the world and their role in it.

they are sociopaths. and for that, i pity them.

lastly, good luck to all my fellow NON CHEATERS!

[curtains]

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Ok,I want to give opinion as well... a bit about myself,Im 17 and used to play poker but I left it because I simply didnt had an enviroment to play in( crappy family-shared PC, account reputation,etc).

The ZJ case:
1)Im really happy.. dirtbags with no ethics got screwed, 6 fckuing accounts !!!SIX!!!, SEIS!!! 2+4!!
2) On the other hand, Im guessing that he simply met the wrong kinda friends. Sorry but Its just isnt that easy to say " you guys are inmoral, I wont hung out with you anymore"
3) After this incident Im not sure if I want to become a succesful semi-pro. I think I will become an "expert" chess player instead.

The discussion:
Curtains: if youre inocent read a, if ure not read b
a) You were just unlucky to have your name mentioned, because ppl like me ,who dont know you ,will begin to ponder if youre a cheater or not.
b) fcuk off.
( please dont reply to this part of the post, I dont know curtains at all.. so dont reply telling me that u know him since 2003, etc.)
Bluffthis: I think youre kinda exagerating, but you are right that its better to walk-off from bad influences and that not doing so is a coward act. read my random thought number 2
shaniac: I wouldnt hung out with someone who cheats but I wouldnt turn them in. However thats all theory and no practice
Eldiablo: youre performance on this thread is kinda overrated IMO, but u go make good points.
GrannyMae: lol, i liked youre post.
The guy whow posted the 72o vs AA hand: the best post ive ever seen on 2+2.

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You sir are a moron. It is extremely wrong of you to even imply that I "might" be a cheater because my name was mentioned by someone. The way you phrased your comments does not make it okay.

[silversurfer]

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People who take this line are falling into the ZJ trap of "well, don't you all use pokertracker or rakeback or any of that stuff? Some people think that's wrong too!"

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I've never used PT. Does it knowingly (here's some bold for you) cheat other people, steal from them, or make them concoct halfassed, unrepentant stories about it? Same for rakeback - even more so. This argument is seriously flawed, and that's not an opinion.

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You think what ZJ did is wrong in bold, others think pokertracker is wrong in bold, and even more think that poker in general is wrong. Without logical reasons for why X is more/less wrong than Y, this is (to quote Lebowski) just like, your opinion man.

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Hello, red herring hotline? I don't care what others think about the potentially fuzzy (I guess) issues of PT and rakeback, I'm talking about cheating and stealing. Do you deny that's what happened here? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Don't pretend that there is some objective moral standard that includes just what you want as moral and everything else as immoral. That's just a self-serving farce.

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You are putting words in my mouth. I'm sorry, but the only farcical thing here is your logic.

[silversurfer]

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Btw: fix your avatar, it says "i still have have a blog".

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avatar != location

plus we were all forced to change that by the mods, it's a 2+2 rule to not have a URL in your location

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eeek. Location is the word I was looking for. You are correct, sir.

[Gabe DV]

you, sir, are a cheater plain and simple. Opening more tables to offset the advantage of chip dumping--yeah, right. This is NOT ambiguous behavior--it is cheating, plain and simple.

[curtains]

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People shoudnt be accused pubically without evidence, but I highly recommend that you ask party poker to check out Curtains and EVERYONE else's account who couldve been cheating.

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Everyone could have been cheating. Everyone on this forum. Jesus from now on anyone who goes out of their way to mention my handle in this light because ZJ simply dropped my name in his response I will have nothing to do with for the remainder of my life.

I am one of many people ZJ knows, and based on his statement, probably the only person who told him straight up about how wrong it was to multiaccount MTTs. All the people who know about it and didn't feel it was necessary to say something to ZJ, they were obviously not mentioned.

[silversurfer]

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You think what ZJ did is wrong in bold, others think pokertracker is wrong in bold, and even more think that poker in general is wrong. Without logical reasons for why X is more/less wrong than Y, this is (to quote Lebowski) just like, your opinion man.

Don't pretend that there is some objective moral standard that includes just what you want as moral and everything else as immoral. That's just a self-serving farce.

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This is absurd. There is no grey area here. There is no argument to justify what happened. Stealing from strangers who have done you no wrong, when you don't need money is WRONG. That is an opinion held by 99.99 percent of the population. That is what ZJ did.

I'm appalled at how many people think ZJ did this just to have more entries, or it wasn't much more ev, or that he didn't collude when he got to the same tables. You guys are either attempting to justify some of you own actions in this backward manner, or have truly been fooled and blinded by this CON-ARTIST.

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Exactly.

[EliotSpitzer]

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You think what ZJ did is wrong in bold, others think pokertracker is wrong in bold, and even more think that poker in general is wrong. Without logical reasons for why X is more/less wrong than Y, this is (to quote Lebowski) just like, your opinion man.

Don't pretend that there is some objective moral standard that includes just what you want as moral and everything else as immoral. That's just a self-serving farce.

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Actually, there is an objective measure of right and wrong in this case. It is spelled out by Party's T&C. In fact, when Justin presented his veritable treatise on ethics in the High-Stakes NL forum, he argued that a site's T&C was the final word on ethics and morality. It is rather entertaining to watch him squirm after he is found to have violated what he himself has declared to be the ultimate authority on ethics and morality. The slippery slope of moral relativism can get awful steep at the bottom.

You guys can argue about ethics all day long, but the only thing that really matters is how Party has defined cheating. Party has defined cheating as multi-accounting in MTTs and the punishment is confiscation of funds and closure of the accounts. I applaud Party for their efforts and hope that many more cheaters are caught in the coming days.