ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[silversurfer]

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I find many of the moral condemnation posts completely unbelievable. Look at the situation: this is a teenager, who has two choices:

1: Make hundreds of thousands of dollars extra by "cheating," an activity that has no legal ramifications at all. The worst that will happen to you is some of your money will get taken away and you will be flamed on an internet message board.

2: Make less money honestly.

When the difference between 1 and 2 is hundreds of thousands of dollars, I find it entirely unsurprising that ZJ would pick #1. Most of us have never been put in this situation, but I would imagine that a great many would also pick #1.

I agree with everyone who said that it's unethical. I especially agree with what ElD said about being harsh on those who cheat. I agree with everyone who said his response was poor. However, I challenge people to say to me with a straight face that it is not entirely understandable what ZJ did.

It's worthless to take the holier than thou attitude until you've been faced with the temptation and have overcome it.

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And I am getting equally disgusted with all of this "nature vs. nurture/evils of temptation" babble (which unfortunately seems to be a subtle undercurrent in many of these posts) that this thread has taken, as if poor defenseless ZJ was never shown the difference between what is and isn't right. Do any of you deny that this is cheating? If you do, do us all a favor and take up another hobby/livelihood. Resist temptation my ass. Not only is this cheating, but in a way, you are also stealing money - and ultimately more importantly, time - from people which will NEVER be replaced. When did you all learn that cheating and stealing was wrong? I would hope at a very young age.

I (and thousands of others) reject it because it is wrong. You can paint this up with eloquent discussion all you want, but it all boils down to that in the end.

I'm not attacking you (or anyone else), but I feel very strongly about this and don't like what this tangent portends. I don't feel that there should be any message of sympathy sent here - and it's now coming from some of the most respected posters on the site:

Diablo, I am quite clear as to how you feel about this debacle, but can you clarify what you mean by these quotes? It looks like a contradiction to me:

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I think you are at heart a good kid, just ethically challenged.
but moreso just someone with a somewhat hazy moral compass

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Ethically challenged? Again, for the cheap seats - I know you do not support what happened here (and I marvel at your wit, by the way). But "ethically challenged"? "hazy moral compass?" Cheating, stealing, arrogance, and (apparently immense amounts of) greed aren't the marks of someone with a "hazy moral compass".

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He doesn’t get it, but you are ignorant for blaming him for this.

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Why? Who is to blame, Jason? His parents? His mischievous friends growing up? I couldn't disagree with you more. You are all willing to say how intelligent he is - why do you infer this decision was beyond his control? He already has the skill to win tens of thousands of dollars, yet his greed drove him to push the edges. Had he shown any remorse, I would be inclined to show a little more compassion. All I see is arrogant drivel from someone whose only regret was that they were caught.

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And when you have a venue where teenagers get idolized for a simple card game and turn down college and a chance to grasp a hold of fundamental principals by experiencing world experiences, ZeeJustin and JJProdigy are among the things you get.

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Boo-f'ng-hoo. I think the condemnation and villification are well-deserved here.

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Lastly though, Im fairly disgusted by the attitude of many posters.

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Same stuff I've been saying applies. But Mike, then you contradict yourself with

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Damn straight he deserves condemnation.

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Again: This is not an attack. But it seems to be a glaring contradiction.

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Like Strasser said though, what do you expect from an environment where anybody with a certain skill set (really they dont have to be that good) can pull down 100k when they are 16-19 years old. Im only 22, so its rediculous for me to talk about life experience...but by going through college you continue to put yourself in situations (both social and academic) that make you define yourself as a person, ethically, morally, psychologically, randomotherly. When you make this amount of money before going through that experience (so other harsher more practical life experience) it is unsurprising that you end up with kids who's moral compass is underdeveloped.


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But like you said - you're young, and you're not a cheat. You think it's wrong. What's his excuse? The next person to defend him on the grounds of having a weak "moral compass" is getting a noogie. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Im very happy that ZJ got busted, but I feel bad for him. I don't feel bad because he lost his money, I feel bad because he so clearly doesnt get it.

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Now THIS is a good point. All that (supposed) intellect, and he stands behind what he has done. Mind-boggling.

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there is a substantial difference between corporate theft and multiaccounting. I think you can figure that out.

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He made a damned good analogy. Your rebuttal is worthless.

ZJ, I don't think you are evil. But all this flak you are taking here is because you present yourself as an unrepentant, arrogant, greedy little shyt. Secondly, see El D's post about the responsibility of well-known players like yourself.
I am ecstatic that you lost the $100k, and wish it was far more. Do you know why? Because you don't seem to grasp the magnitude of what you have done. I can tell you from personal experience that the best lessons you learn are the ones that kick you in the ass the hardest, and $100k probably isn't much of a loss to you anymore.
I bet all the tea in China you are back to this within 60 days, and I shudder to think how many other people are going to waste money and time playing with your next incarnation.
Woodguy said it best - I hope you grow up someday.

For the record, I would direct this venom at anyone who cheats. Dutch Boyd, Doyle Brunson, Mother Theresa. This is a huge problem, and I hope this online crucifixion serves to flush out as many cheats as possible from this game.
As several pros have said in this thread: Screw anyone who is going out of their way to rob me of my money and time. I hope they get more of you mf's.

Finally:

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Hey ZJ,

Would love your input on the following common tourney situation.

Late-middle stages of tourney. Blinds 150/300. Avg stack 6,500. I'm UTG w/ 4,000 and 33. I'm also in CO w/ 10,000 and QTs.

What is optimal strategy here?

What do you have in the BB?

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These posts won the thread.

[N 82 50 24]

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I understand that, but Stars has already basically turned away from this issue. All of the outrage on here seems hypocritical in that so many 2+2ers play on Stars all the time. I would think people would insist on a stronger stance on the part of Stars if they think it's cheating.

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I don't think this last bit makes sense, unleess you're talking about people who come along saying "OMG why doesn't Party stop this WTF?" People can be aware that cheating goes on, have disgust for the cheaters, and still play on a site that doesn't do quite as much as they'd like to stop cheaters. I don't see the hypocrisy.

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The hypocrisy is condemning something then giving business to a company that hasn't taken a strong stance against it.

What if I said that I strongly disagreed with hiring illegal aliens, then proceeded to give half of my business to Store X because it has good prices (similar to good tournament fields in the poker example)? And also assume that Store X is known to look the other way when hiring people, many of whom are known illegal aliens.

You don't think that's hypocritical?

[MLG]

Silver,
I dont feel I contradicted myself. He deserves to be publicly condemned for what he did, that doesn't mean we have to be happy about the condemning. Thats all I'm saying.

[RJ!]

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Yep,
Just can't wait to sit in another MTT with ole Zee over at Stars. If this were New York or Vegas, he wouldn't be able to sit a game anywhere. But, it's the internet. So all the other sites should just give him a pass until they can figure out how he gets one over on them? You have something you want to fess up to RJ!?

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i dont have anything i want to "fess up to" of course theres a back story, and its in the archives. i just think your message board heroics are silly and youre kind of making an ass of yourself. how many MORE people need to insult this person over the internet? im sure being the 85th person to make an empty thread to someone who probably isnt reading this is fantastic for you, but thinking and doing something else would probably be more fruitful than making lame, empty threats to someone who has already been insulted mercifully over the internet. get out of here man...

rj

[gumpzilla]

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The hypocrisy is condemning something then giving business to a company that hasn't taken a strong stance against it.

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I'm not sure Sears has ever taken a strong public stance against the violence in Darfur. I'm not cool with genocide. Therefore it is hypocritical of me to purchase Craftsman products.

Obviously this isn't what you're saying, but my point is that your criterion up there is quite vague. Cheating goes on in internet poker. Is any site really doing everything imaginably possible to catch colluders? Should I refuse to give them business because of it? I think this mentality says that I should boycott poker altogether, pretty much.

I think Stars has very solid customer service, and they have been responsive when I have brought concerns to them before. Party has a reputation for being bad on this front, which is one reason I don't play there. While Stars may not be doing quite as much as I may like to curb MTT cheating, that doesn't make them immoral, nor does it mean that I'm supporting cheating, in my view. Particularly since about the only MTTs I play with any regularity are 2+2 ones.

EDIT: Also, Stars response on the multiplayering front was months ago, wasn't it? In light of all of this recent garbage I'd be surprised if they didn't change their tune.

[locutus2002]

Sent: 2006/02/24 16:20:14
To: [email protected]
Subject: To Lee Jones

>Hi,
>
>I am a stars player. I would like to know what action stars has taken
against known cheaters. I find it inconceivable that the stars 500K has
grown to 5000 players so quickly. You guys owe me a public statement. I
am considering closing my account.
>
>Locutus2002
>
>

[TimWakefield]

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I believe this is my first post here, usually I'm on the FCP forums. Perhaps somebody has said this before, but SINCE HE HAS BEEN CAUGHT CHEATING ALL OF HIS PROFITS SHOULD BE SUSPECT.

For some reason a lot of you guys seem to think this is like Men Nguyen getting caught snagging a few extra chips during break. It's not. ZJ was systematically cheating in as much as every single MTT he played in. Just because he has not yet been accused of cheating in SNGs does not mean he did not cheat in those as well.

To me, ZJ is an extremely successful cheater. Perhaps somebody has proof of big $$$ he won without cheating, but if nobody does then all of his winnings should be considered tainted. He is not accused of cheating once. He is accused, and addmitted to, cheating all the time.

And even if we believe his story that his 6 selves WEREN'T acting as a team (and you are an idiot if you believe that) it is still an enormous advantage. Do you think Phil Ivey would enter the WSOP if he was facing a field of say 2000 players, including 6 Dan Harringtons, even if all six PROMISED with all their heart not to collude (and that they would distract themselves with massages and sidebets if they were at the same table) hahahahahahahahahahahhaha.

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What, I get no love on my first post?????? No welcome even?

[N 82 50 24]

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I'm not sure Sears has ever taken a strong public stance against the violence in Darfur. I'm not cool with genocide. Therefore it is hypocritical of me to purchase Craftsman products.

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I didn't realize that Craftsman parts were made there. A better-known example would be buying Nike shoes after condemning abusive factories. It's the definition of hypocrisy to do that IMO.

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Obviously this isn't what you're saying, but my point is that your criterion up there is quite vague. Cheating goes on in internet poker. Is any site really doing everything imaginably possible to catch colluders? Should I refuse to give them business because of it? I think this mentality says that I should boycott poker altogether, pretty much.

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That's really not what I'm saying. I know cheating happens in poker and that it's impossible to prevent it sometimes. But it seems like Stars is behind the times in terms of its prevention of this practice. At least evidence of a good faith effort to punish it and prevent it would go a long way towards their reputation in this area.

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I think Stars has very solid customer service, and they have been responsive when I have brought concerns to them before. Party has a reputation for being bad on this front, which is one reason I don't play there. While Stars may not be doing quite as much as I may like to curb MTT cheating, that doesn't make them immoral, nor does it mean that I'm supporting cheating, in my view. Particularly since about the only MTTs I play with any regularity are 2+2 ones.

EDIT: Also, Stars response on the multiplayering front was months ago, wasn't it? In light of all of this recent garbage I'd be surprised if they didn't change their tune.

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They do have great customer service, but they haven't attacked this issue in the same manner. Hopefully they do change their tune, but it's too bad that it takes another site's actions to spring their reaction (that is, IF it springs a reaction).

[Wayfare]

"I (and thousands of others) reject it because it is wrong. You can paint this up with eloquent discussion all you want, but it all boils down to that in the end. "

People who take this line are falling into the ZJ trap of "well, don't you all use pokertracker or rakeback or any of that stuff? Some people think that's wrong too!"

You think what ZJ did is wrong in bold, others think pokertracker is wrong in bold, and even more think that poker in general is wrong. Without logical reasons for why X is more/less wrong than Y, this is (to quote Lebowski) just like, your opinion man.

Don't pretend that there is some objective moral standard that includes just what you want as moral and everything else as immoral. That's just a self-serving farce.

[NoahSD]

PM,

I know. I mainly just wanted to point out that this event aroused contradictory feelings in most of the mature posters on this site--in the hope that people'd turn down their anger a bit.

I've got a bad habit of leaving out my point when I say things, so thanks for clarifying it in your response.