The Ant and the Blade of Grass - Page 15

Lestat · #**141** 08-27-2007, 06:31 PM

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The only difference is that I cannot allow myself to plug in a god (or any reason), that cannot be verified.

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But there are only two options.

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Why do you keep saying that? There are significantly more than two. You just won't recognize any of the others. I'm sure you think I'm being silly when I submit: alien super computer, 6th dimensional kid with his chemistry set, juju at the bottom of the sea, invisible gremlins, or shizbet the all powerful tree creature who lives outside of time.

But even if you won't accept any of these possibilities (although you should), won't you even acknowledge Allah, Tian, or any of the current gods?

Seriously... I'm NOT trying to be silly! There are all kinds of possibilities to our unanswered questions. Some more serious than others, but certainly more than the two you insist on.

NotReady · #**142** 08-27-2007, 06:38 PM

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Why do you keep saying that?

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Design and non design (ultimate chance). If you accept design then the form of that design can be debated.

Lestat · #**143** 08-27-2007, 07:00 PM

<font color="blue"> Design and non design (ultimate chance). </font>

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand. Basically, you don't think any design can be mindless. Is that about right? Because evolution is not all about chance. It IS desgin!! I don't think there's any question about that. But the term you hate so much "mindless" is where our problem stems.

I've asked you before about snowflakes and I believe you said you weren't sure if each was individually crafted by God. How about rock formations? Do you acknowledge that the winds and elements can (randomly at first), start a process that eventually evolves into some pretty cool structures (like the Grand Canyon)?

What about a computer simulation? We can seed a random number generator to paint pixels, plug in some simple rules, and let it go. I'm sure we can expect some pretty cool "designs" from it.

So perhaps if you defined more clearly what you mean by "mindful". There are many things that can evolve a design without any apparent creator. And like I said, evolution (or any design), doesn't necessarily imply that God doesn't exist (to put the first few rules in place). But I don't think your argument that it must be God or random doesn't follow.

Justin A · #**144** 08-27-2007, 10:25 PM

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I'm winding down in what I have to say about the topic of religion and God. I'm not sure there's been a single believer who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.

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I was a Christian when I started reading this forum and I am now an atheist. I know of at least a couple others with similar experiences to mine based on the knowledge gained in this forum.

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I'm curious why? What was said here that you didn't think of before? Or is it that you just never thought about it before? That was the case with me. I was like 19 before I allowed myself to think about whether I really believed all the Christian stuff taught to me as a kid. Of course, you know what I concluded and I was in shock for a few days afterward.

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Before I came here, when I had questions they were always answered by other Christians. So when I thought about things that troubled me, I found rationalizations for them because I wanted to believe so much. This forum showed my that those rationalizations were not based on sound logic, and that the religion I believed in was full of contradictions. I think the actual turning point was a paper that ChrisV linked to showing that the four gospels are extremely shaky sources of history.

Lestat · #**145** 08-27-2007, 11:05 PM

This has nothing to do with SMP, but I'm just curious about other people's experiences. Wasn't it a shock when the world view you took for granted as true your whole life just started slipping away and disappearing into thin air like that?

I read somewhere that this girl at one of Dawkins' seminars burst into tears as it dawned on her there really wasn't a god. People go through so many emotions. One of them is anger. Anger at being lied to all those years. Anger at themselves for being so gullible. Anger at having wasted so much time living a fantasy.

This is why I really do agree with Dawkins on one point. Don't brainwash your children! It's really traumatic on them if they ever do break free from the dogma.

TimM · #**146** 08-27-2007, 11:19 PM

My "conversion" was gradual and non-traumatic. It started when I was about 14 or so (1980), and I had to do it pretty much on my own, perhaps with some encouragement from my 10th grade biology teacher, some PBS shows like Cosmos and others, and various other influences. I did not have books I am now enjoying, like Dawkins', and Dennett's, and Hitchens', and Harris', any of which could have done the same job in a few days.

luckyme · #**147** 08-27-2007, 11:47 PM

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My "conversion" was gradual and non-traumatic. It started when I was about 14 or so (1980), and I had to do it pretty much on my own, perhaps with some encouragement from my 10th grade biology teacher, some PBS shows like Cosmos and others, and various other influences. I did not have books I am now enjoying, like Dawkins', and Dennett's, and Hitchens', and Harris', any of which could have done the same job in a few days.

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That's encouraging. I'm been wondering if a foundation like "The Goodians" could be formed and leave copies in hotel rooms but wasn't sure if they seemed of value to me because I was in the choir already.

luckyme

NotReady · #**148** 08-28-2007, 01:28 AM

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So perhaps if you defined more clearly what you mean by "mindful".

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I mean God created the universe and is separate qualitatively from the universe. He is sovereign over it and controls whatever comes to pass. I don't know if He allows for some element of chance in a trivial way, such as a coin flip, but He is in control of the results. Nothing is outside His power and knowledge. So in that sense, nothing is undesigned or uninterpreted by God.

Justin A · #**149** 08-28-2007, 02:35 AM

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This has nothing to do with SMP, but I'm just curious about other people's experiences. Wasn't it a shock when the world view you took for granted as true your whole life just started slipping away and disappearing into thin air like that?

I read somewhere that this girl at one of Dawkins' seminars burst into tears as it dawned on her there really wasn't a god. People go through so many emotions. One of them is anger. Anger at being lied to all those years. Anger at themselves for being so gullible. Anger at having wasted so much time living a fantasy.

This is why I really do agree with Dawkins on one point. Don't brainwash your children! It's really traumatic on them if they ever do break free from the dogma.

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You should make a thread about it.