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#141
03-01-2007, 06:24 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This thread was not about eliminating all traffic laws or removing the speed limit. The question was don't you think that taking a picture and sending it to your home saying pay this ticket you were speeding, is a violation of our personal freedom? Face it the government is getting to big and controlling. It is a fact and there is no arguing this. [/ QUOTE ] So your belief is that it's oppression for you to use someone's property in a way expressly forbidden by the person and then to be punished for that misuse via a means of which you were previously aware (in this case, a ticket)? [/ QUOTE ] I have a little bit of difficulty classifying state property as "someone's property". Not a great deal of difficulty, but I do have some. For one thing, the state didn't pay for it, the people did. So it really should be owned by the people and not the state. It might of course be administered by the state, but the state should not get to own it. As it is paid for by the people, the people should have some way to determine whether or not they want camera-traffic-law-enforcement on the people's roads. Voting for politicians won't really do for that because the bureaucrats who make such decisions are often well distanced from the political process, and because political candidates generally have more important issues to run on. I think more things like this should go up for Referendum Vote before being implemented. 
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#142
03-01-2007, 06:31 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Another problem is that even that would not take into account such things as perfectly legitimate uses of extra speed, such as in avoiding a potential accident or in passing another vehicle. [/ QUOTE ] And why wouldn't these be defenses to use in challenging the ticket? [/ QUOTE ] They might be but somehow I doubt they would work enough of the time. Yet if the government could not prove otherwise, they should work all the time. But they won't work often enough that I'll bet the driver would often be in the position of having to prove his innocence rather than the state having to prove his guilt. To me that's very un-American. It's also a pernicious trend that has been long been growing in this country, and in many areas besides traffic tickets.
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#143
03-01-2007, 06:32 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Have you read any of my posts in other threads? [ QUOTE ] Will you all of a sudden drive like a dangerous and reckless person if these camera's are removed and police stop doing speed traps? [/ QUOTE ] What if we removed all speed limits? [/ QUOTE ] How has the Autobahn done in Germany all these decades (you've heard of the Autobahn, I presume)? Is it still major highway with no speed limit? [/ QUOTE ] The Autobahn is not analogous since it is tougher to get a license in Germany, for starters. [/ QUOTE ] It still shows that no speed limit on a major highway is far short of an absolute disaster, doesn't it?
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#144
03-01-2007, 06:41 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
For one thing, the state didn't pay for it, the people did. So it really should be owned by the people and not the state. It might of course be administered by the state, but the state should not get to own it. [/ QUOTE ] What's the difference (assuming we're talking about a US-style deomocropulbic)?
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#145
03-01-2007, 06:53 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Excellent idea! When they crash, it'll be a gentle crash. [/ QUOTE ] We can also make it illegal to be out in public without big fluffy mittens on our hands (no more assault and battery injuries) I should rule the world i'm so smart. [/ QUOTE ] Dear Troll, I nowhere ever suggested such a thing. I simply said it would save lives. I never said it would be worth the costs to do so. If you were to drop the speed limit on all roads to 25 mph (and enforce it), there would be virtually no traffic fatalities. This disproves the notion that speed does not kill. Encforcing minimum speed limits or hanging out in the left lane MAY be just as effective as enforcing a 70mph speed limit (as two different possibilities). I am not denying this. [/ QUOTE ] I was mearly taking your assertions and expanding them to further reduce injuries and deaths. If your idea is 'good' why isn't my idea even better? [/ QUOTE ] There is no doubt your assertions would reduce deaths. I never made a contrary claim. Do you have a point? I was merely attacking the claim that "speed does not kill", which is clearly false. Speed is a very important factor in determining likelyhood of a fatal accident. Difference in speed is ALSO one.
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#146
03-01-2007, 06:55 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
What happened to due process in this discussion? Because both the government and the private contractors who set this up have a substantial financial stake in the process, who is going to ensure that this is all being done on the up and up?
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#147
03-01-2007, 06:55 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] For one thing, the state didn't pay for it, the people did. So it really should be owned by the people and not the state. It might of course be administered by the state, but the state should not get to own it. [/ QUOTE ] What's the difference (assuming we're talking about a US-style deomocropulbic)? [/ QUOTE ] Practically speaking maybe not much, but I was answering Dano's remark about someone having a problem with video cameras on private property and Dano's reasoning that since tyhe state was private property, why should that someone have a problem with cameras on state property? I was pointing out that that reasoning should not apply to state property because state property shouldn't really be owned by the state as it is fully paid for by the people.
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#148
03-01-2007, 06:57 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
How the heck would you propose to completely eliminate subjectivity, though? Put Robocops at every intersection and every 200 yards on the highways? Another problem is that even that would not take into account such things as perfectly legitimate uses of extra speed, such as in avoiding a potential accident or in passing another vehicle. [/ QUOTE ] I said reduce, not eliminate. Passing another vehicle is a "legitamte" reason to speed? Has this forum turned into the twilight zone? What about being late for a meeting? Speeding to avoid an accident? For this .00001% cases of all speeding? Are you joking? How could you possibly even speed to avoid an accident?
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#149
03-01-2007, 07:02 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Have you read any of my posts in other threads? [ QUOTE ] Will you all of a sudden drive like a dangerous and reckless person if these camera's are removed and police stop doing speed traps? [/ QUOTE ] What if we removed all speed limits? [/ QUOTE ] How has the Autobahn done in Germany all these decades (you've heard of the Autobahn, I presume)? Is it still major highway with no speed limit? [/ QUOTE ] But that is on a specific highway and that highway is patrolled. I believe if you are in the passing lane, you better be passing someone or you will get a ticket. My point was more about removing enforcement of the rules for a particular road. The Germans are also more serious about driving in that you don't see people yakking on the cellphone or trying to eat something while driving. For instance, I wouldn't have a problem with a private road that had no speed limit. I might not drive on it, but I wouldn't have a problem with its existence.
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#150
03-01-2007, 07:04 PM
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Re: Speeding Cameras
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Excellent idea! When they crash, it'll be a gentle crash. [/ QUOTE ] We can also make it illegal to be out in public without big fluffy mittens on our hands (no more assault and battery injuries) I should rule the world i'm so smart. [/ QUOTE ] Dear Troll, I nowhere ever suggested such a thing. I simply said it would save lives. I never said it would be worth the costs to do so. If you were to drop the speed limit on all roads to 25 mph (and enforce it), there would be virtually no traffic fatalities. This disproves the notion that speed does not kill. Encforcing minimum speed limits or hanging out in the left lane MAY be just as effective as enforcing a 70mph speed limit (as two different possibilities). I am not denying this. [/ QUOTE ] I was mearly taking your assertions and expanding them to further reduce injuries and deaths. If your idea is 'good' why isn't my idea even better? [/ QUOTE ] There is no doubt your assertions would reduce deaths. I never made a contrary claim. Do you have a point? I was merely attacking the claim that "speed does not kill", which is clearly false. Speed is a very important factor in determining likelyhood of a fatal accident. Difference in speed is ALSO one. [/ QUOTE ] Did you really think that the poster you were responding to is stupid enough to think that in a fantasy world where all cars travel at 1 mph there would not be less accident fatalities than in one where all cars travel at 60mph? Speed kills is government propaganda. Planes travel at 600mph, are they vehicles of death?
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