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#131
09-05-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This is an ill posed question. If the 100% are government schooled and the 93% are privately schooled, the number of educated students and the quality of their educations would be vastly higher. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe you can help me where pvn did not: how in the heck do we objectively measure quality of education? [/ QUOTE ] Despite claims of "social biases" in testing, its not exactly rocket science. The study above focuses on 4th and 8th grade scores, SAT scores are a good substitute at the 11th grade level. 
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#132
09-05-2007, 05:53 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If the number of children being schooled went from 100% to 93% would the number of educated people be higher or lower? [/ QUOTE ] This is an ill posed question. If the 100% are government schooled and the 93% are privately schooled, the number of educated students and the quality of their educations would be vastly higher. [/ QUOTE ] It looks like you have been misinformed check the summary [/ QUOTE ] And if the results had been further broken down by socio-economic status and family composition the differences would have been even more insignificant.
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#133
09-05-2007, 05:57 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If the number of children being schooled went from 100% to 93% would the number of educated people be higher or lower? [/ QUOTE ] This is an ill posed question. If the 100% are government schooled and the 93% are privately schooled, the number of educated students and the quality of their educations would be vastly higher. [/ QUOTE ] It looks like you have been misinformed check the summary [/ QUOTE ] Lol. Executive Summary: Private schools scored significantly better, until we "adjusted" them so they wouldn't. Sure dude. Government schools are just as good as private schools. That's why the politicians and educrats send their kids to private schools.
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#134
09-06-2007, 12:13 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Some less obvious examples...the savings in number of police needed on the streets during school hours, reduced crime rates overall [/ QUOTE ] We could accomplish the same thing with concentration camps <font color="red"> true, but concentration camps dont carry the other benefits of education </font> [ QUOTE ] the additional parents that enter the labor force helping to keep labor costs down [/ QUOTE ] Those labor costs would go down because of the increased competition for jobs. <font color="red">thats what i said </font> Competition tends to improve quality and reduce price. Computers and cell phones are better and cheaper than ever while education is weaker and more expensive. I wonder why. <font color="red"> are you implying a correlation? </font> [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I know that's what you said, but if you realize that free market competition in the absence of government monopolies works to improve quality and lower costs in labor, computers, and cell phones, why would eliminating the government monopoly on education not accomplish the exact same thing?
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#135
09-06-2007, 12:22 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
Despite claims of "social biases" in testing, its not exactly rocket science. The study above focuses on 4th and 8th grade scores, SAT scores are a good substitute at the 11th grade level. [/ QUOTE ] I teach standardized testing for a living. An SAT score is NOT an objective measure of a student's aptitude or academic abilities.
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#136
09-06-2007, 12:32 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Some less obvious examples...the savings in number of police needed on the streets during school hours, reduced crime rates overall [/ QUOTE ] We could accomplish the same thing with concentration camps <font color="red"> true, but concentration camps dont carry the other benefits of education </font> [ QUOTE ] the additional parents that enter the labor force helping to keep labor costs down [/ QUOTE ] Those labor costs would go down because of the increased competition for jobs. <font color="red">thats what i said </font> Competition tends to improve quality and reduce price. Computers and cell phones are better and cheaper than ever while education is weaker and more expensive. I wonder why. <font color="red"> are you implying a correlation? </font> [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I know that's what you said, but if you realize that free market competition in the absence of government monopolies works to improve quality and lower costs in labor, computers, and cell phones, why would eliminating the government monopoly on education not accomplish the exact same thing? [/ QUOTE ] Because education is not a "product" and the problems we have are not in the "system". The problems we have are in student and family dedication. Someone who is lazy about learning in a public school will be lazy about learning in a private school.
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#137
09-06-2007, 12:34 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Despite claims of "social biases" in testing, its not exactly rocket science. The study above focuses on 4th and 8th grade scores, SAT scores are a good substitute at the 11th grade level. [/ QUOTE ] I teach standardized testing for a living. An SAT score is NOT an objective measure of a student's aptitude or academic abilities. [/ QUOTE ] thats a debate for a different thread. Whether SATs are or aren't objective, and how close they are to being objective, designing objective tests obviously can be done. Until then SATs and other standardized tests are a reasonable proxy.
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#138
09-06-2007, 02:03 PM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Some less obvious examples...the savings in number of police needed on the streets during school hours, reduced crime rates overall [/ QUOTE ] We could accomplish the same thing with concentration camps <font color="red"> true, but concentration camps dont carry the other benefits of education </font> [ QUOTE ] the additional parents that enter the labor force helping to keep labor costs down [/ QUOTE ] Those labor costs would go down because of the increased competition for jobs. <font color="red">thats what i said </font> Competition tends to improve quality and reduce price. Computers and cell phones are better and cheaper than ever while education is weaker and more expensive. I wonder why. <font color="red"> are you implying a correlation? </font> [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I know that's what you said, but if you realize that free market competition in the absence of government monopolies works to improve quality and lower costs in labor, computers, and cell phones, why would eliminating the government monopoly on education not accomplish the exact same thing? [/ QUOTE ] Because education is not a "product" and the problems we have are not in the "system". The problems we have are in student and family dedication. Someone who is lazy about learning in a public school will be lazy about learning in a private school. [/ QUOTE ] Huh? How is education not a product? Every time I fly, the skymall catalog has ads for several different foreign language learning programs: Berlitz, Rosetta Stone, etc. Does not competition between such companies create a better product? If so, wouldn't competition between schools for students also create a better product? Labeling a student as a "lazy" learner creates a false dichotomy between "good" and "bad" students. All students fall along a spectrum. A student who is bored and uninterested in class may never become a straight A student, but he can become a little more interested and learn a little bit more if he has a better teacher, smaller class size, different instructional techniques, etc. Competition between schools for that student's tuition dollars would drive such advances, as opposed to the current monopoly.
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#139
09-07-2007, 01:29 AM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
Because education is not a "product" [/ QUOTE ] Neither is labor, but you yourself indicated the cost improvements we'd see in the presence of competition. Why not the labor of educators?
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#140
09-07-2007, 01:46 AM
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Re: Black market schools
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Some less obvious examples...the savings in number of police needed on the streets during school hours, reduced crime rates overall [/ QUOTE ] We could accomplish the same thing with concentration camps <font color="red"> true, but concentration camps dont carry the other benefits of education </font> [ QUOTE ] the additional parents that enter the labor force helping to keep labor costs down [/ QUOTE ] Those labor costs would go down because of the increased competition for jobs. <font color="red">thats what i said </font> Competition tends to improve quality and reduce price. Computers and cell phones are better and cheaper than ever while education is weaker and more expensive. I wonder why. <font color="red"> are you implying a correlation? </font> [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I know that's what you said, but if you realize that free market competition in the absence of government monopolies works to improve quality and lower costs in labor, computers, and cell phones, why would eliminating the government monopoly on education not accomplish the exact same thing? [/ QUOTE ] Because education is not a "product" and the problems we have are not in the "system". The problems we have are in student and family dedication. Someone who is lazy about learning in a public school will be lazy about learning in a private school. [/ QUOTE ] Huh? How is education not a product? Every time I fly, the skymall catalog has ads for several different foreign language learning programs: Berlitz, Rosetta Stone, etc. Does not competition between such companies create a better product? If so, wouldn't competition between schools for students also create a better product? Labeling a student as a "lazy" learner creates a false dichotomy between "good" and "bad" students. All students fall along a spectrum. A student who is bored and uninterested in class may never become a straight A student, but he can become a little more interested and learn a little bit more if he has a better teacher, smaller class size, different instructional techniques, etc. Competition between schools for that student's tuition dollars would drive such advances, as opposed to the current monopoly. [/ QUOTE ] What I mean by "education is not a product" is that it is a process. The provider of education services is helpless to produce positive results without the cooperation of the student. Obviously there is a spectrum of students, but it is not a false dichotomy. Students within any socio-economic class are heavily grouped at the extremes of motivation. There is no current monopoly. There are numerous opportunities for private schooling. The previously posted study is consistent with every other study Ive seen. There is no significant difference between results in public and private schools. and there is no evidence that class size and instructional techniques are significant indicators for success for children of normal intelligence. The most important indicator for educational success other than socio- economic status is parental involvement. Eg Asian students in California, where class sizes are significantly larger than most of the rest of the country, are no less successful than public or private school students elsewhere, based on non-legacy acceptances in universities.
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