Wpex Stole My Money

[Syphilis]

I don't understand what everyone's problem is. OP got caught using a bot and wasn't allowed to cash out. Follow the site's T&C, then you'll be fine.

I don't see where OP got in trouble for datamining/using a HUD (despite the fact that those are against the T&C anyway).

I have no problem if dataminers/hudders don't play there cause those people are bad for poker anyway. If you need those tools, to win, then you suck.

[BuddyQ]

[ QUOTE ]
...I will review our Terms and Conditions in the near future. Fred Balfour General Manager WSEX.com

[/ QUOTE ]

The GM's argument is -you were warned in the T&C, therefore our seizure is fair-.
However, the T&C, such as it is, is open to interpretation as to it’s exact meaning, and who is the final arbiter? -some unknown official of the 'Antigua Gamming Commission'. It is fair to say that more than half of the site’s users use Poker Tracker. Is that illegal? Good guestion.

This thread has raised an important issue, it is beyond The OP's individual circumstances, and I think the GM now realizes this. The issue is not whether WPEX's policies are good or bad, that is up to them. The issue is the clarity of the site's T&C.

To avoid the accusation of unfairness in the future, WPEX needs to amend the T&C. Prohibited actions need to be clearly and definitively delineated in the site's T&C. There should be no confusion as what commercially available poker associated programs are legal or illegal, or in what way it is legal or illegal to use them. Further, there should be no confusion as to what player actions regarding the use of other non-commercially available ‘software enhancements’ are illegal.

The prospect of WPEX seizing your money based on some loose language in a sloppily drafted T&C will have a chilling effect on site traffic. WPEX's legal advisors need to act immediately, and the new T&Cs should be actively ('check here to accept') accepted by the users.

This is not rocket science.

[fraac]

OP got caught POSSIBLY using a bot. WPEX have no explicit list of prohibited software and they don't give warnings before seizing money so that you can clarify whether and precisely how you're doing something wrong.

WPEX's current policy is that they will investigate only if you whine on 2+2. Is that viable? Even the people here delighted with WPEX's service may one day understand PR.

[cardman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what everyone's problem is. OP got caught using a bot and wasn't allowed to cash out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about kicking out players using bots, BUT

1) WSEX should kick out the players immediately when a bot is detected. Not let them play for weeks or months until finally on WITHDRAWAL, the players funds are seized.

2) WSEX should not profit from seized funds. I want proof that seized funds will be distributed to existing players in a fair manner.

3) Immediately when a bot is detected, a warning should be sent out to the player to remove the software or have his account closed. Not seize his 4K on withdrawal. What about all those weeks or months the other players had to endure of playing against this bot using player?

This sudden seizure and closure of an account only on withdrawal reeks of tolerance for the bot user while he's beating other players. Meanwhile funds are seized by WSEX on withdrawal.

4) WSEX should seriously consider banning bot users way before withdrawal time. Other players will thank them and WSEX won't look suspicious.

[TheScientist]

[ QUOTE ]
OP got caught POSSIBLY using a bot. WPEX have no explicit list of prohibited software and they don't give warnings before seizing money so that you can clarify whether and precisely how you're doing something wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's whats making everyone uneasy... I'm starting to think that what the WPEX GM called a bot is not what 95% of us would call a bot (HandGrabber/HUD). The idea that you could have your money seized for running programs that are routine on every other site is worrying, to say the least.

If it is actually a true bot...again, good job WPEX, but there still needs to be some sort of formal complaint process other than Antigua Gaming because, for all we know, all those complaints fall into a black hole (or are perhaps biased in their evaluations).

[questions]

[ QUOTE ]
It is fair to say that more than half of the site’s users use Poker Tracker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, unless you have actual number to back that up, it isn't fair to say that.

[Syphilis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what everyone's problem is. OP got caught using a bot and wasn't allowed to cash out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about kicking out players using bots, BUT

1) WSEX should kick out the players immediately when a bot is detected. Not let them play for weeks or months until finally on WITHDRAWAL, the players funds are seized.

2) WSEX should not profit from seized funds. I want proof that seized funds will be distributed to existing players in a fair manner.

3) Immediately when a bot is detected, a warning should be sent out to the player to remove the software or have his account closed. Not seize his 4K on withdrawal. What about all those weeks or months the other players had to endure of playing against this bot using player?

This sudden seizure and closure of an account only on withdrawal reeks of tolerance for the bot user while he's beating other players. Meanwhile funds are seized by WSEX on withdrawal.

4) WSEX should seriously consider banning bot users way before withdrawal time. Other players will thank them and WSEX won't look suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points, I agree with all this.

[BuddyQ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is fair to say that more than half of the site’s users use Poker Tracker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, unless you have actual number to back that up, it isn't fair to say that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is possible to determine the actual number, of course. So, my estimate is just that, an estimate. Based on my expierience, I think it's a fair estimate. You are free to disagree of course. Do you have any constructive comments to contribute here?

[questions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is fair to say that more than half of the site’s users use Poker Tracker.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, unless you have actual number to back that up, it isn't fair to say that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it is possible to determine the actual number, of course. So, my estimate is just that, an estimate. Based on my expierience, I think it's a fair estimate. You are free to disagree of course. Do you have any constructive comments to contribute here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but 1) PT is not cheap and a minority of players are going to shell out the money for it; 2) I have PT but do not use it during play; 3) even if you have it, it's not easy to set up and cumbersome to use when you are merely a recreational player.

Finally, suggesting that over half of Stars' players (about 50,000 during peak hours) are using PT is outlandish, IMO, and without actual data to back that it up, that claim should not go unchallenged due to the fact that if accepted at face value, it bolsters your argument at the expense of others' arguments. Asking you to show the substance behind your claim is reasonable.

I'm sorry that DAC's money has been frozen, but bots are against the rules, so I guess my questions would be 1) was he using a bot; and 2) did he know that using bots was against the rules?

[MrCharlie]

No PT, no bots, no player assistance software, no IM. That is how poker should be played.

Thanks WPEX.