"Official" High Stakes Poker Season 3 (Week of 1/22)

[King Fish]

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No, it's a stretch to say that because he won 2 of the 4 events he entered, you are assuming he's going to keep up that pace. If he enters 20 events next year I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that he won't win any event.

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He's pretty much even money to win the WSOP ME, since he lost it this year.

[Joe O]

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"And for the next 13 weeks (the entire run of HSP 3) Vegas Night will be bringing you all the best that Vegas has to offer - in 30 and 60 second segments!"

Sounds like an infomercial to me but hell, I Tivo it and skip it anyways.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[menacing_1]

In the 2006 WSOP, David Grey had a bet with Erik Seidel for $100,000 at just 4:1 that John Juanda wouldn't win any event. Juanda didn't, and Grey won $100,000.

100:1? Hmmm...

[Rottersod]

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Well I think Gabe's play was very ballsy, to say the least, but he must have known what he was doing. He represented a big hand by calling on the flop and betting out on the turn. It's like saying "yeah you took a shot at me, but let's just agree now that I have the best hand and we both know it." He was pretending to play ABC poker, but it was really an expert play. It seems like Bill played the hand as though he was in a tournament by taking shots with his pair of 88s. He knew he was done if he got called.

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Yes, I agree that it was a ballsy play on his part. The point I have been trying to make is that a better cash game player than Chen might have picked up on the fact that Gabe's actions were not consistent with the hand he was trying to represent. He was obviously trying to represent an A (even DN agreed about that) but if we closely look at his actions (limping early (maybe UTG) to a straddle, and then calling a raise from early2/UTG2 to a relatively tight player, then checking the A flop, then calling the 8k bet, and only then betting the turn) we can see that he most likely would not have done these with just an A high. he would have done these with a monster AA, a low pocket pair or a bluff. Chen had two of those beat. I believe that a player such as Ted Forrest, Jen Harmon, Barry Greenstein and some others would have thought about this a lot longer than Chen did and may have decided to re-raise. Not always but I do think they would have done this and this is why I watch a show like HSP. For the hope of seeing something like that.

[Rottersod]

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rotter 2 things you say make absolutly no sense- even though one was adressed already you still defend this statement:

A player like Daniel or Todd or someothers may have raised him there just to test that and then Gabe wouldhave folded. This is why I don't like watching tournament donks play inHSP.


Yea lets see gabe had already put 34k in the pot so basically if you raise him its a raise all in. I really doubt any of these pros are gonna put there hole stack in here with 88 hoping gabe is bluffing (or isnt pot commited with a monster draw)


He decidedthat Chen was a guy he could bluff and that's why he called preflopwith that hand. I was laughing at DN's commentary when Gabe calledpreflop because I knew with 100% certainty what his plan was and DN wasstill shocked that he would be calling.

Well no [censored]. Except Negranu is analyzing the hand live (or as though he saw it live) They wouldnt put the hand on TV for no reason so when he calls 5k with K5 suited obviously he isnt planning on hitting the flop.

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Gabe started with 111k and I don't believe that if he was re-raised all in he would have been pot committed with a weak A. This isn't a tourney. It's real money. This is also the difference between ABC poker - which is what Gabe was playing - and the better pros who would have been able to spot that kind of a move and put him to a big test.

As far as the K5 hand. I agree that the reason I knew right away what Gabes play would be is because they showed it on TV. There had to be a reason they were showing it so I agree that my deduction of it was results oriented to a degree. But when you say he isn't planning on hitting the flop with K5s that's my point. I know that he knew that there were going to be a lot of flops that he could represent a hand with by calling that 5k preflop raise from a player such as Chen.

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I'm going to go ahead and guess you've NEVER made a play like this in your poker life. And if you have, you're not a winning player.

Sure. Dedicate 170 BB's to the pot in HOPES the guy with hte tight image doesn't at least have top pair. Easy to say when you can see the cards.

You appear to be the quintessential, " I know the EXACT right play at all times" guy. When you can see the cards, at least.

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About time somebody said this.

Gabe was OOP, limp/called w crap preflop, check/called the flop w air, bet right out on the turn w air. Last I checked, that's a great way to donk off a whole bunch of chips, not some "masterful" move. With any sort of luck Chen would have won a big pot right there and all the know-it-alls would be laughing at Gabe.

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My gawd! You're just proving my whole point. I couldn't have said it better. Gabe's move was NOT masterful. That was the point I was making. A better cash game specialist then Chen should have spotted it and pounced. What would Gabe have been calling those raises with? Either a bluff or a monster. He was trying to represent an A low kicker and Chen bought it but if he had really thought about it he should have known that Gabe would not have bet all that money on such a hand.

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Um, duh. Since I happen to have a fairly outgoing personality, if I was in Chen's seat, I would have said "WTF kind of line is that? You either have a monster or pure air." Then I would have used my Spidey-sense to either fold or shove. So what? Chen very likely followed the same thought process, then used his Chen-sense or whatever to fold. Or not, we'll never know. Anyway, neither you, nor I, nor anybody else would know if that was "right" or not until Gabe showed.

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Right but my whole point is that I think that players like Chen don't belong in this HSP game because they will never be able to make that re-raise. Better players may be able to make this once in a while and this is why I am watching HSP. Nothing against Chen. I'm sure he is a fine player but he is out of his league and doesn't bring any entertainment value to the production either.

[Rottersod]

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[ Not all would but that's why some pros are really good at what they do and that's why players like Chen are ABC players.

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Holy crap how misinformed can someone be? Have you ever played with Bill Chen? Have you ever read any fo his theories or writings? Did you even know who he was before HSP?

Chen is so for and away not an ABC player the absurdity of your comment negates any positive value you may have brought to civilization in the past 5 years.

While Bill may not be the best player at the table, he is certainly not outclassed. And I'll freely wager that wherever Bill sits, he's the smartest player at the table, even if said table is held in a high-level NASA backroom.

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Gimme a break. Smartest player at the table. Whoop de frikkin do. I'd stake Doyle against him any day, any week, any month, any year. Just because he won some tourneys doesn't translate into any high stakes cash game. Based on what I've seen of his play so far he isn't in the same class at this level. Sorry but that's the facts. Until he shows something that could be classified as a real read on someone I won't be budged from my view.

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And you've seen him play what? 6 hands? I've probably played a few thousand against him (as have others in this thread), which is what we've been tryng to tell you. It doesn't take much research on Bill to see how he approaches game situations. Let me know if you think he's still an ABC player.

Saying you'd stake Doyle over Bill is a no-brainer. As I said, Bill isn't the best player at that table, but he is far from the worst. You take Doyle. I'll take Ivey.

Bill entered 4 events at this year's WSOP (and, to be honest, I think they may have been his first 4 WSOP events ever), and won 2. So, assuming he keeps that pace up, and plays every event this year, he'll be the all-around WSOP bracelet winner by this time next year by a large margin. (Since you can base everything about his game on 2 episodes of HS poker, I will predict his future tournament success past on mathmatics and past, proven results.)

He's also done quite well in online MTTs. Not bad for someone who isn't really even a tournament player.

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His tourney results have nothing to do with his high stakes cash game play. Look at his results (I provided the link in an earlier post). Nothing until last years WSOP. OK, he had a great run at the WSOP. I live in LA and we have many, many tourneys here during the year that are $2500+ buy ins and get hundreds of entries. The main difference between his wins and those are that he gets a WSOP bracelet and the competition is a bit tougher (although spread out over more tables). I was kidding about him being a tournament donk. OK. I'll take that back. But please don't elevate him to great tourney player based on 1 month of play last year.

[Rottersod]

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"And for the next 13 weeks (the entire run of HSP 3) Vegas Night will be bringing you all the best that Vegas has to offer - in 30 and 60 second segments!"

Sounds like an infomercial to me but hell, I Tivo it and skip it anyways.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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Isn't it a commercial for Vegas and certain hotels (Wynn). Done in a folksly format.

[King Fish]

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rotter 2 things you say make absolutly no sense- even though one was adressed already you still defend this statement:

A player like Daniel or Todd or someothers may have raised him there just to test that and then Gabe wouldhave folded. This is why I don't like watching tournament donks play inHSP.


Yea lets see gabe had already put 34k in the pot so basically if you raise him its a raise all in. I really doubt any of these pros are gonna put there hole stack in here with 88 hoping gabe is bluffing (or isnt pot commited with a monster draw)


He decidedthat Chen was a guy he could bluff and that's why he called preflopwith that hand. I was laughing at DN's commentary when Gabe calledpreflop because I knew with 100% certainty what his plan was and DN wasstill shocked that he would be calling.

Well no [censored]. Except Negranu is analyzing the hand live (or as though he saw it live) They wouldnt put the hand on TV for no reason so when he calls 5k with K5 suited obviously he isnt planning on hitting the flop.

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Gabe started with 111k and I don't believe that if he was re-raised all in he would have been pot committed with a weak A. This isn't a tourney. It's real money. This is also the difference between ABC poker - which is what Gabe was playing - and the better pros who would have been able to spot that kind of a move and put him to a big test.

As far as the K5 hand. I agree that the reason I knew right away what Gabes play would be is because they showed it on TV. There had to be a reason they were showing it so I agree that my deduction of it was results oriented to a degree. But when you say he isn't planning on hitting the flop with K5s that's my point. I know that he knew that there were going to be a lot of flops that he could represent a hand with by calling that 5k preflop raise from a player such as Chen.

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I'm going to go ahead and guess you've NEVER made a play like this in your poker life. And if you have, you're not a winning player.

Sure. Dedicate 170 BB's to the pot in HOPES the guy with hte tight image doesn't at least have top pair. Easy to say when you can see the cards.

You appear to be the quintessential, " I know the EXACT right play at all times" guy. When you can see the cards, at least.

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About time somebody said this.

Gabe was OOP, limp/called w crap preflop, check/called the flop w air, bet right out on the turn w air. Last I checked, that's a great way to donk off a whole bunch of chips, not some "masterful" move. With any sort of luck Chen would have won a big pot right there and all the know-it-alls would be laughing at Gabe.

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My gawd! You're just proving my whole point. I couldn't have said it better. Gabe's move was NOT masterful. That was the point I was making. A better cash game specialist then Chen should have spotted it and pounced. What would Gabe have been calling those raises with? Either a bluff or a monster. He was trying to represent an A low kicker and Chen bought it but if he had really thought about it he should have known that Gabe would not have bet all that money on such a hand.

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Um, duh. Since I happen to have a fairly outgoing personality, if I was in Chen's seat, I would have said "WTF kind of line is that? You either have a monster or pure air." Then I would have used my Spidey-sense to either fold or shove. So what? Chen very likely followed the same thought process, then used his Chen-sense or whatever to fold. Or not, we'll never know. Anyway, neither you, nor I, nor anybody else would know if that was "right" or not until Gabe showed.

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Right but my whole point is that I think that players like Chen don't belong in this HSP game because they will never be able to make that re-raise. Better players may be able to make this once in a while and this is why I am watching HSP. Nothing against Chen. I'm sure he is a fine player but he is out of his league and doesn't bring any entertainment value to the production either.

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But Chen IS capable of making that reraise. In this instance, though, he didn't. At this point, Gabe is an unknown. Is there any reason at this point to believe that Gabe is really comfortable enough at these stakes to bluff in this spot?

Given the situation, I do not think there is a player at that table who does not fold there. MM's fold to Gabe's riv bet was far, far worse than Chen's fold here (tho really not awful, either). You have to remeber the perception of the player who is making the raise.

It is far easier for Chen to push on a player like DN or MM in that situation than it is to push against Gabe.

Poker is easy when you see the hole cards.

[Rottersod]

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"And for the next 13 weeks (the entire run of HSP 3) Vegas Night will be bringing you all the best that Vegas has to offer - in 30 and 60 second segments!"

Sounds like an infomercial to me but hell, I Tivo it and skip it anyways.

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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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Noun

* S: (n) infomercial, informercial (a television commercial presented in the form of a short documentary)

[Rottersod]

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rotter 2 things you say make absolutly no sense- even though one was adressed already you still defend this statement:

A player like Daniel or Todd or someothers may have raised him there just to test that and then Gabe wouldhave folded. This is why I don't like watching tournament donks play inHSP.


Yea lets see gabe had already put 34k in the pot so basically if you raise him its a raise all in. I really doubt any of these pros are gonna put there hole stack in here with 88 hoping gabe is bluffing (or isnt pot commited with a monster draw)


He decidedthat Chen was a guy he could bluff and that's why he called preflopwith that hand. I was laughing at DN's commentary when Gabe calledpreflop because I knew with 100% certainty what his plan was and DN wasstill shocked that he would be calling.

Well no [censored]. Except Negranu is analyzing the hand live (or as though he saw it live) They wouldnt put the hand on TV for no reason so when he calls 5k with K5 suited obviously he isnt planning on hitting the flop.

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Gabe started with 111k and I don't believe that if he was re-raised all in he would have been pot committed with a weak A. This isn't a tourney. It's real money. This is also the difference between ABC poker - which is what Gabe was playing - and the better pros who would have been able to spot that kind of a move and put him to a big test.

As far as the K5 hand. I agree that the reason I knew right away what Gabes play would be is because they showed it on TV. There had to be a reason they were showing it so I agree that my deduction of it was results oriented to a degree. But when you say he isn't planning on hitting the flop with K5s that's my point. I know that he knew that there were going to be a lot of flops that he could represent a hand with by calling that 5k preflop raise from a player such as Chen.

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I'm going to go ahead and guess you've NEVER made a play like this in your poker life. And if you have, you're not a winning player.

Sure. Dedicate 170 BB's to the pot in HOPES the guy with hte tight image doesn't at least have top pair. Easy to say when you can see the cards.

You appear to be the quintessential, " I know the EXACT right play at all times" guy. When you can see the cards, at least.

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About time somebody said this.

Gabe was OOP, limp/called w crap preflop, check/called the flop w air, bet right out on the turn w air. Last I checked, that's a great way to donk off a whole bunch of chips, not some "masterful" move. With any sort of luck Chen would have won a big pot right there and all the know-it-alls would be laughing at Gabe.

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My gawd! You're just proving my whole point. I couldn't have said it better. Gabe's move was NOT masterful. That was the point I was making. A better cash game specialist then Chen should have spotted it and pounced. What would Gabe have been calling those raises with? Either a bluff or a monster. He was trying to represent an A low kicker and Chen bought it but if he had really thought about it he should have known that Gabe would not have bet all that money on such a hand.

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Um, duh. Since I happen to have a fairly outgoing personality, if I was in Chen's seat, I would have said "WTF kind of line is that? You either have a monster or pure air." Then I would have used my Spidey-sense to either fold or shove. So what? Chen very likely followed the same thought process, then used his Chen-sense or whatever to fold. Or not, we'll never know. Anyway, neither you, nor I, nor anybody else would know if that was "right" or not until Gabe showed.

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Right but my whole point is that I think that players like Chen don't belong in this HSP game because they will never be able to make that re-raise. Better players may be able to make this once in a while and this is why I am watching HSP. Nothing against Chen. I'm sure he is a fine player but he is out of his league and doesn't bring any entertainment value to the production either.

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But Chen IS capable of making that reraise. In this instance, though, he didn't. At this point, Gabe is an unknown. Is there any reason at this point to believe that Gabe is really comfortable enough at these stakes to bluff in this spot?

Given the situation, I do not think there is a player at that table who does not fold there. MM's fold to Gabe's riv bet was far, far worse than Chen's fold here (tho really not awful, either). You have to remeber the perception of the player who is making the raise.

It is far easier for Chen to push on a player like DN or MM in that situation than it is to push against Gabe.

Poker is easy when you see the hole cards.

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I agree with you 100% that MM's fold was terrible. Where we disagree is in believing that in a HSP game Chen is capable of making such a move. I think you are basing your feeling that he is capable on his tourney play but I am discounting that as having no bearing in a high stakes cash game. Until I see Chen make moves in this game that are anything more than ABC I am going to have to stick with my belief. Believe me though, I would much rather be proved wrong as it would be entertaining to watch.