**Official uNL Microbrew thread: July(LC/NC)** - Page 136

netstorm · #**1351** 07-10-2007, 01:07 PM

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I didn't think this deserved its own thread but I'm confused. BTN was raising like every hand, so I figured GOD DAMN IT HE'S NOT WINNING THIS HAND, so I called. To my surprise, UTG called too. Did I play this hand good or should I have just shoved preflop?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $207.10
Hero (BB): $169.90
UTG: $104.10
MP: $95.45
CO: $108.85
BTN: $197.05

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG calls $1.00, MP calls $1.00, CO folds, BTN raises to $6.00, SB folds, Hero calls $5.00, UTG calls $5.00, MP folds

Flop: ($19.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero bets $14.00, UTG raises to $28.00, BTN folds, Hero raises to $49.00, UTG raises all-in to $98.10, Hero calls $49.10

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You should've had 43s in this hand [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

No but serious, I dont like the preflop call. I know you want to make a stand, and you could that with ATC, but I'd prefer to have position then. Flop is ok I guess

ssdex · #**1352** 07-10-2007, 01:08 PM

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The whole point of the post was to point out a basic flaw in most microstakes understanding of 6max, point::

Every single one of you will advocate raising any PP utg.... I don't really think you understand why you do this, except for i'm going to
a) im raising to steal the blinds
b) im raising to build the pot when I flop a set

Every single one of you is tossing 8's or worse when you get 3bet, why the hell raise pp's utg then? this is super exploitable....

so why raise 43s utg? because its just a better play then raising any pair under 8's
a) you steal the same as any pocket pair
b) you build the pot for flopping a big hand just like a cet
c) you can call 3bets much more profitably then any pair b/c you dont have to c/f non set flops

but im sure this is above any of your understandings of UTG play......... jesus, go ask any of the big players who have made a killing off hands like 43s, this is why it is a popular hand for "favorite hand"

and im not only felting 2 pair, or trips or anything like that, lots of combo draws, lots of times I can outplay people after the flop

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[censored]. I can and have called small PP's OOP. Just as with your godlike hand 43s, you can c/r, bluff, float or w/e. Its all about the reads. But that doesnt take away that you are opening a marginal hand OOP.

EDIT: Im also pretty sure high stakes players wouldnt this at the microstakes

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when you call a pair under 8's your calling to flop a set, I understand you can make plays after the flop, but your only felting hand is a set

a hand like 43s, you will flop a straight, a flush, 2 pair or trips, with much greater frequency then you will flop a set

also, any combo draw you pick up you will have the right equity 53/47 against any overpair to shove

its a much better felting hand
has the same potential for making moves
steals blinds just as often

derosnec · #**1353** 07-10-2007, 01:10 PM

with 43s you are going to be drawing a huge % of time on the flop. (look at odds of flopping certain hands at Flop Turn River's site). so you will be drawing OOP. with a PP, you flop/you don't flop.

now as for being 3-bet, i'd hate either hand utg.

thac · #**1354** 07-10-2007, 01:11 PM

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good luck playing 43s profitably OOP in a three bet pot

also, I'm logging out of 2+2 and quitting poker b/c I don't raise 43s UTG

BYE

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this is why I hate posting here, I make a good argument, with valid points, and all of you are so hard headed you miss a good piece of advice, please don't waste my time with responses like this, it has no merit, its fine really, I wont bother making strategy posts anymore, especially one that when considered makes a little bit of sense

raising 43s utg is better/more profitable then any pair under 8's if your folding them to 3bets, even if your calling 3bets with them, like always........... if its not, then please, with some poker theory, explain to me why its not, dont just tell me its bad and increases variance... thats not an argument

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Please read this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

Here, I'll help:

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Summary

- you have a 5.6% (1 in 18, 17:1 chance) of flopping a good made hand
- you have a ~7% (1 in 14, 13:1) chance of flopping a strong (12+ outs) combo draw
- you have a ~13% chance (1 in 7.5, 6.5:1) chance of flopping a standard OESD or FD

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Yes, you'll flop a draw slightly more times than you'll flop a set, but you're risking a stack to draw to what is not the nut flush and possibly not the nut straight. When your 43s runs into AKs on a 67Tss board, then what?

You can bluff with 43s and whatever, but you can do the same with any pair too, except with a pair, you have SOME showdown value. I don't see where you get the idea that you're gonna flop something huge so often.

bozzer · #**1355** 07-10-2007, 01:13 PM

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a hand like 43s, you will flop a straight, a flush, 2 pair or trips, with much greater frequency then you will flop a set

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pretty sure this is wrong: suited connectors, implied odds and you

thac · #**1356** 07-10-2007, 01:14 PM

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a hand like 43s, you will flop a straight, a flush, 2 pair or trips, with much greater frequency then you will flop a set

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pretty sure this is wrong: suited connectors, implied odds and you

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You're slow.

Gelford · #**1357** 07-10-2007, 01:16 PM

Guys, a range consists of good solid hands and an air segment, where you have things like 44 and 87s or if you so choose 43s and Q3o

The reason you add junk and semi-trash to your ranges is to mask your good hands (Theory of Poker, bluffing frequencies) and thus increase the payoff on those.

All the hands in your pf ranges are NOT supposed to be profitable, you aim is to maximize your OVERALL winrate (or hourly, if you are a massive multitabler).

That being said, 43s is not in my UTG range, but I don't mind it being there. On a different note, insisting that it is profitable might be a stretch, but critizing it for being unplayable due to being unprofitable is also a stretch.

And finally if you suck postflop, playing with wide ranges is a spew, but that is a different subject alltogther.

/end Gelfordness.

bozzer · #**1358** 07-10-2007, 01:16 PM

you're pretty sick fast [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

anyway ssdex, we've kind of thought about this, y'know?

Manchild84 · #**1359** 07-10-2007, 01:17 PM

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($67.85)
Button ($142.35)
SB ($44.70)
BB ($47.75)
UTG ($96.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, Button raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero raises to $18, Button calls $11.

Flop: ($36.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $33, Button folds.

Final Pot: $69.75

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins $69.75. 

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I'm curious what your read was here... just seems -EV. You have to figure his 4b calling range is something like TT+, AK, in which case only 2 hands out of that didn't hit. Just seems -EV to me (I guess you could argue that he might fold AA here since he puts you on QQ, KK, but I doubt that).

gumpzilla · #**1360** 07-10-2007, 01:20 PM

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All the hands in your pf ranges are NOT supposed to be profitable, you aim is to maximize your OVERALL winrate (or hourly, if you are a massive multitabler).

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The second part of the sentence is certainly true, but I think it's not obvious that the first part is supposed to be true. That is, it's not clear that your maximized win rate will come from playing hands which can't be played profitably. Certainly you want to mix it up, but the question is can you derive the benefits from mixing up by playing hands that you can still profit from?

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