Global Warming

[wacki]

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The initial batteries used basically took up the entire trunk space. And the original prototypes couldn't recharge at higher speeds. So really I guess it depends on where you draw the line for when the technology is "developed". All I was saying with that example is that there is often a big gap in time and money from when the first model that actually achieved the main goal (in this case higher efficiency) is built and when the product is actually put into production.

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Ok, it looks what you consider the "production stage" is what is really the R&D stage.

When the battery is too big you call in the chemists to make it smaller. That is the R&D. When the battery is finally small enough to be practical you call in the Industrial engineers to see if they can make it cheaply. That is the production stage.

When you say we could have had hybrids 10 years ago I hope you can see why the technology wasn't ready when they are using trunks filled with batteries. I hope you can see why the average person wouldn't consider buying that car and why it isn't a competitive product. That has NOTHING to do with the production stage. Hybrids weren't ready then, and to be honest hybrids may or may not be ready in a year. They still aren't a better product right now. What will make the difference with them being a better product is not then industrial engineer. Although MIT's batteries may of changed that, I don't know. Still, MIT just announced it and when the performance is solidified in the lab I really doubt it will take them a year to get a factory to make it.


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So really I guess it depends on where you draw the line for when the technology is "developed".

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You draw the line the same way everyone else in the field draws the line, by who is doing the research to make a product that can compete. Is it the chemists? Or the guys that are trying to design an efficient factory?

[chief444]

Production stage = actually producing substantial quantities for sale/use. The hybrid was just an example b/c something like the algae farms you mentioned to create fuel is probably about as close to something practical as they hybrid vehicle a decade+ ago. Although there are hybrid vehicles being produced and sold to the public now so that certainly would be considered to be in the production stage. MIT's new battery will likely just improve the next hybrid design.

[wacki]

ok, this is getting difficult.

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Production stage = actually producing substantial quantities for sale/use.

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Glad we got that down. Now answer this, if you don't have a superior product, why go into production stage? Is that really smart? Do you really think hybrid prototypes 10 years ago with their massive batteries were superior to a Honda Accord? If so why would you say this:

If it was simply a matter of developing technology everybody would have been driving a hybrid vehicle 10+ years ago.


You figured out what I'm saying now?

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Although there are hybrid vehicles being produced and sold to the public now so that certainly would be considered to be in the production stage.

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Again we go back to the superior product thing......

[chief444]

I'm not really sure what you're arguing. Borodog himself said:

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My point is, and will remain, that when alternative energy technologies and cleaner production technologies become economical, they will be used.

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And I think that's very true. And I don't see how what you say now does anything but support that statement. You're initial response to his economic question was to simply point out what research is being done now. My point was simply that the research you mentioned is for the most part:

1) In early stages with other unforeseen issues that will have to be addressed as time goes on.

2) A small part of the total investment of getting any of it into something practical for every day use.

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Do you really think hybrid prototypes 10 years ago with their massive batteries were superior to a Honda Accord?

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Of course not.

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If so why would you say this:

If it was simply a matter of developing technology everybody would have been driving a hybrid vehicle 10+ years ago.


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Because it's true. It was quite a bit of time between when the first hybrid vehicle was made that was more efficient than anything on the market and when a hybrid vehicle actually hit the market. The purpose of the initial research was to design a battery operated vehicle with a gasoline generator that was more efficient than a gasoline engine drive. This was successfully done. But as often is the case there were other issues to work out. Most new technology has stumbling blocks (comparable to the hybrid battery) to get over before it is usable and economical. I was simply comparing the hybrid vehicle to:

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Scientists at berkeley are very close to coming out with an algae that can be used to fuel all of our cars while taking up only a very tiny amount of farm land to grow.


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This does not mean that we'll see algae farms in the very near future. If/when it becomes economical (as borodog said and as the hybrid finally is) we will. And unless I can just go pick some algae and put it in my Honda gas tank there will likely be other stumbling blocks to overcome (economic and design issues).

[wacki]

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Do you really think hybrid prototypes 10 years ago with their massive batteries were superior to a Honda Accord?

Of course not.

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good.

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If so why would you say this:

If it was simply a matter of developing technology everybody would have been driving a hybrid vehicle 10+ years ago.

Because it's true.

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If you really believe everyone would willingly choose an inferior product then you are delusional. Seriously.

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I was simply comparing the hybrid vehicle to:


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No. There is no need to compare to anything but the cars currently in use. Either it is a superior product or it isn't. Forget about the [censored] algae.



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This does not mean that we'll see algae farms in the very near future. If/when it becomes economical (as borodog said and as the hybrid finally is) we will.

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1) As far as I can tell borodog isn't an authority on anything. So I wouldn't reference him.

2) I'm glad you finally realize that better products will sell. Now please think about your 10 year ago hybrid comment.

3) This is a basic economics 101 concept. It's called "utility".

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And unless I can just go pick some algae and put it in my Honda gas tank there will likely be other stumbling blocks to overcome (economic and design issues).

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Tell me something I don't know. BTW, most people call this developing the technology.


Ugh... done in here for the day.

[chief444]

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If you really believe everyone would willingly choose an inferior product then you are delusional.

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Again you're taking what I say out of context and missing the overall sentiment. Nothing in my post was meant to indicate I believed that to be true. Clearly it isn't.

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1) As far as I can tell borodog isn't an authority on anything. So I wouldn't reference him.


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I'm just trying to understand what about:

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My point is, and will remain, that when alternative energy technologies and cleaner production technologies become economical, they will be used.

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you're disagreeing with. That's all. I was under the impression that you felt the alternative energy technologies you mentioned were fairly close to being economical. It doesn't seem as if they are. The reason is the "technology is not really yet developed" and it's all going to take quite some time before it makes econmical sense. I agree the rest is pretty basic stuff. Maybe I just completely missed what you were disagreeing about because you seem to be saying the same thing. Other than of course now you're saying forget the algae.

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Ugh... done in here for the day.

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Again? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Joe Tall]

Anyone watching 60 mins right now? Bump

[Myrtle]

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Anyone watching 60 mins right now? Bump

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....I did Joe....

It makes me want to vomit.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1415985.shtml

[Rick Nebiolo]

Happened to read George Will on Global Warming this morning. Decided to search Politics and the Science forum on 2+2 and found this thread.

Good thread and I learned a lot. Perhaps George Will should stick to talking about baseball [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

~ Rick

PS If the link requires registration consider using Firefox and Bugmenot.

[FlFishOn]

"Good thread and I learned a lot."

What?