The Ant and the Blade of Grass

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">- what do I do now? I cant snap my fingers and not believe any more easily than I can snap my fingers and believe there are little green men buzzing isolated rural areas in flying saucers. </font>

I'm sure this feeling of having a spiritual relationship with a higher being is very real. I can't imagine you haven't explored other possible reasons for it however (reasons other than a god). If you were to come up with say, 5 other equally likely reasons, would you/could you logically conclude that it being a god was an underdog?

I'm actually starting to come around in my thinking that believing in a god isn't necessarily a bad thing. Certainly not for people who aren't blessed with friends and loved ones, or lack for a sense of belonging. The fact is, religion and churches will always be a harmless, productive thing to them.

Of course, I feel differently about fanatics and even people like NotReady who are above average in intelligence and make no excuse or apologies when it comes to suspending logic in defense of their beliefs. I just think it's dangerous to think, "I am right. No matter what you say, no matter what science ways, no matter what evidence may come to light. My way is the only way. Everyone else is wrong!".

I'm winding down in what I have to say about the topic of religion and God. I'm not sure there's been a single believer who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.

I have however, found an organiztion called the "Brights". It seems to be a peaceful campaign to organize non-believers and bring them out of the closet to bring rationality to the civilized world. So far, I think it's a good cause and will probably join.

Sorry, most of this has nothing to do with you bunny -lol. I'm just thinking out loud in what if anything, I want to do in the way of promoting free thinking when it comes to religion. I do think it's an important subject. Very important. I have kids that will have to grow up in this world. Political wars are bad enough as a real possibility. Cataclysmic events caused by imaginary beings is that much more terrifying. At leas to me.

[NotReady]

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I'm not sure there's been a single believer who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.


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I'm not sure there's been a single unbeliever who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.

[bunny]

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I'm sure this feeling of having a spiritual relationship with a higher being is very real. I can't imagine you haven't explored other possible reasons for it however (reasons other than a god). If you were to come up with say, 5 other equally likely reasons, would you/could you logically conclude that it being a god was an underdog?

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I dont find probability very useful in this area. The closest I can come to what you wrote is to say that if I was a rational non-believer who believed probability could be reasonably applied to the question of whether god exists or not, then I expect I would conclude it was unlikely and that other, materialist explanations were more likely. I certainly think someone with no experience with God would be rational to be an atheist rather than an agnostic. Does that answer your question?

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I'm actually starting to come around in my thinking that believing in a god isn't necessarily a bad thing. Certainly not for people who aren't blessed with friends and loved ones, or lack for a sense of belonging. The fact is, religion and churches will always be a harmless, productive thing to them.

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Gee thanks. Though some of us have friends as well (most of them atheists in my case).

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Of course, I feel differently about fanatics and even people like NotReady who are above average in intelligence and make no excuse or apologies when it comes to suspending logic in defense of their beliefs.

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I dont think he makes an excuse or apology because it's not what he does. In my view, you are far better off reading posts on this forum as charitably as possible. With a view to "What could he possibly have been thinking that would give this some credence?" rather than leaping to the "That's irrational!" that so many do. I dont think NotReady is anywhere near as irrational as people make out - I think he operates from different premises (which are rarely the topic of discussion).

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I just think it's dangerous to think, "I am right. No matter what you say, no matter what science ways, no matter what evidence may come to light. My way is the only way. Everyone else is wrong!".

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I agree completely. I dont understand why faith has become tied to certainty. If anything I think it is less reliable than empirically derived beliefs - that doesnt diminsih it's value (to me anyway).

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I'm winding down in what I have to say about the topic of religion and God. I'm not sure there's been a single believer who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.

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That's a shame, I enjoy your posts. I agree that you probably wont change people's minds (though you've changed mine about one or two things) but is that really why you post here? I prefer to post specifically to have my own mind changed. It's a selfish motivation, perhaps, but posting your own thoughts and inviting criticism seems like a benefit to you, irrespective of whether anyone is persuaded by your views or not.

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I have however, found an organiztion called the "Brights". It seems to be a peaceful campaign to organize non-believers and bring them out of the closet to bring rationality to the civilized world. So far, I think it's a good cause and will probably join.

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I wonder if they'd accept a theist member. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

Of course, I feel differently about fanatics and even people like NotReady who are above average in intelligence and make no excuse or apologies when it comes to suspending logic in defense of their beliefs. I just think it's dangerous to think, "I am right. No matter what you say, no matter what science ways, no matter what evidence may come to light. My way is the only way. Everyone else is wrong!".

of course, these are the same people are easily convinced that genocide is a good idea, etc.

[carlo]

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Of course, I feel differently about fanatics and even people like NotReady who are above average in intelligence and make no excuse or apologies when it comes to suspending logic in defense of their beliefs. I just think it's dangerous to think, "I am right. No matter what you say, no matter what science ways, no matter what evidence may come to light. My way is the only way. Everyone else is wrong!".

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This is getting tiring. I don't see NR as being impervious to science or logic. I do see that the great intellects are peeved that they are unable to bend him with specious arguments. Every time one cannot rationally display one's point many posters will jump to NR as a pariah who just doesn't get it. Most of the time he may not even be involved in the debate.

The story goes like this: Evolution states absolutely blah, blah, blah but guys like " "don't see it. This is supposed to make your post true. This is so weak. Even DS has kept the cabal alive and by suggestion the rest of you have followed suit.

Many of you have left fundamentalist backgrounds but continue with your fundie lack of restraint and continued stridency. A cult, I say a cult, is what you subscribe to and you've wasted so much ink on your own egocentric idiosyncrasies and this is being kind.

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of course, these are the same people are easily convinced that genocide is a good idea, etc.


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This relates to NR and the religious. Absolutely no basis in fact. Consider our recent world history. WW1, WW2, Viet Nam, Cambodia, etc.,etc. Malevolent wars and atrocities all started by the "intelligeneia" ,"power seekers" political malcontents and anybody who thinks they know better. Nuts! Just plain nuts!!(Up comes the Crusades,whoops!). Put the blame where it is due, not some vague abstraction you made up in order to "win" with your point. Read about these events including the Crusades and speak to them in context. You don't own science, The Christians do so also as much or even more than you might think.

End of rant.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Gee thanks. Though some of us have friends as well (most of them atheists in my case).
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I didn't mean YOU! -lol. I just meant that I'm sure there are a lot of people who find love and belonging in their church. I meant to say that churches do provide some wonderful things to people and the world!

*I also didn't mean any offense to NR. If anything, he's one of the more impressive theists here. He doesn't shy away from tough questions and he's not afraid to learn more about things like evolution. I admire that.

*You're right that I don't post to change other people's minds. It's kinda like poker for me. Talking about hands with other good thinkers improves my own game. Likewise, talking about different subjects on here, forces me to grow as well. I didn't mean to imply I'm going anywhere. I'm just running out of things to say on the subjects of God and religion. I think I've made all the points I can make. I wish I just knew more about the math and science part of SMP so I could get involved in those discussions.

[Lestat]

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I'm not sure there's been a single believer who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.


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I'm not sure there's been a single unbeliever who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.

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That was probably a wrong statement for me to make. My own mind has been changed on several things concerning religion (if anything, I'm more tolerant). I also think (although I could be wrong), that this forum has made you take a closer look at the accuracy of evolution.

I also didn't mean anything personally offensive in my comment about you. As I stated to bunny, I admire the way you take on just about any question (some which are put in an offensive way). You get asked more tough questions than most and never shy away from them. And if I'm right that you're taking another look at evolution, I find that also commendable.

[NotReady]

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I also didn't mean anything personally offensive in my comment about you.


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I didn't think you did.

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And if I'm right that you're taking another look at evolution, I find that also commendable.


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I've never rejected evolution. Sometimes it seems that way due to definitional issues. My basic position since I've been a Christian and that hasn't really changed is that the evidence for macroevolution is slim and so it's very unlikely, but not impossible. But even if it was demonstrated with certainty it wouldn't change my basic Christian beliefs. The reason I attack evolution is because I don't think it's true and if that can be shown the only option left is creationism. But I probably think evolution less likely now than I did a few months ago. And I will oppose undesigned evolution regardless.

[tpir]

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...if that can be shown the only option left is creationism.

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Why is creationism the only other option?

[Justin A]

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I'm winding down in what I have to say about the topic of religion and God. I'm not sure there's been a single believer who has been convinced otherwise on this forum, despite the abundant wealth of logic which has been offered in refutation. I'm not sure anything can or will be solved in such debates.

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I was a Christian when I started reading this forum and I am now an atheist. I know of at least a couple others with similar experiences to mine based on the knowledge gained in this forum.