Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game

[kidcolin]

You're ignoring minutes again. Garnett is playing ~5 minutes more per game in that stretch. Their per 40 stats are comparable. KG snags more boards. When you go by rebound rate, they're very close.

I think you're also misunderstanding what I'm saying. I think KG's peak is better. His '03-'04 and '04-'05 years are just outstanding. Duncan's peak is longer. Other than the injury year, his PER hovers around 26 to 27. KG had a monster two year run of 29 and 28, but it's dropped 2 points each of the last two years. Also, PER underrates defense, which Duncan is better at. That much isn't debatable. No matter how versatile KG's defense is, what Duncan does in the paint is remarkable. KG is no slouch, but Duncan's defensive impact is greater.

When I combine that info with my impression from watching games, watching Duncan get it done time and time again, I give him the nod.

Even if you tweak the numbers and can find a way to give KG the edge, it's ever so slight, so Vyse is still talking out his ass when he says KG destroys him.

And yes, I'm a huge KG fanboi. If Danny Ainge somehow beat all the odds and got him in green, I'd be moving back to Boston in a heartbeat. I just think Duncan is better.

[Assani Fisher]

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Duncan is extremely underrated. We all love flash. So of course someone who plays boring and unimaginative basketball isn't going to be rated fairly. MEbenhoe, your career averages for both players ignore the fact that Robinson played in an era where 20 more points were scored per game.

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Robinson's best season was '93-'94 (29.8 ppg), when the league average was 101.5 ppg. Duncan's best season was 01'02 (25.5 ppg), when the league average was 95.5 ppg. So no, the difference wasn't 20, and no, Duncan's numbers aren't better than Robinson's when adjusted for era.

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thats 12.

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no, 101.5 - 95.5 = 6.

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I could pick other seasons and it'd be 20.

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no, you couldn't. You made that number up and even the two extremes don't work out close. The fact is, during Robinson's 14 years the league average was 99.5 ppg, and during Duncan's 10 years it's 95.6 ppg. A difference of four.

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Duncan causes his team to win moreso than Robinson. Bottom line.

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i never argued he didn't.

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If each team averaged 6 more points per game, then 12 more points per game were scored.

Yes, I could find two seasons where it is over 20. Here you go: In 1998-99, 183.2 points were scored per game. In 1989-90, 214 points per game were scored. Thats a difference of 30.8.....way more than 20!

Ok, so based upon your last line, we're basically in agreement then?

[MEbenhoe]

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You're ignoring minutes again. Garnett is playing ~5 minutes more per game in that stretch.

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Why is KG's durability being used as an argument against him rather than for him? I'd think only missing 15 regular season games over the past 8 seasons while averaging 39.4 mpg would be considered a good argument in KG's favor.

[Assani Fisher]

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Duncan averages 21.8, 11.9, and 3.2. Hakeem averages 21.8, 11.1, and 2.5. And thats not even factoring in pace and era.

Hakeem's career PER is 23.6, Duncan's is 25.2.

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these numbers include Hakeem's last 6 years, where he was no where near as productive as the first 12. FWIW Hakeem's averages through his first 10 seasons are 23.5/12.5/3.6. If Duncan plays 8 more years (which he probably won't, no offense to him, an 18 year career is unreal) his overall numbers will dip well below Hakeem's.

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More titles despite having at best a similar cast over the coures of his career, better stats despite playing on a slower paced team and in a lower scoring era, more awards and honors, better PER....how can you say "i'm not sure how anyone can argue on Duncan's side"?

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comparing number of titles is a poor way to compare players, and especially here. Hakeem had to compete against the best player and the best team in NBA history, as well as another historically great team (Jazz), while Duncan has not. Stats are slightly in favor of Duncan because he's still in his peak. Comparing peak seasons or first 10 years and it's clear Hakeem's stats are better.

I'll say it again, Hakeem was better offensively and defensively, and it's not really that argueable.

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LOL at the Jazz being "another great team." Kobe/Shaq's Lakers were way better than those Jazz- the two main stars are better and the supporting cast.

And since Hakeem NEVER FACED MJ'S BULLS IN THE PLAYOFFS, you can't use that as an excuse for them not winning more.

[Assani Fisher]

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Comparing peak seasons or first 10 years and it's clear Hakeem's stats are better.

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And again, against much better players than Duncan has had to face.

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That simply isn't true. Shaq is better than any other big man Hakeem had to face(when Hakeem faced him he wasn't in his prime yet). If I was listing the best big men since Hakeem came into the league, my first tier would be:

Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
KG

Notice that Hakeem is the one that never had to face any of these in their primes!

I will admit that David Robinson would probably be the first name in my second tier.

[Assani Fisher]

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Duncan averages 21.8, 11.9, and 3.2. Hakeem averages 21.8, 11.1, and 2.5. And thats not even factoring in pace and era.

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and WTF, you switched their blocks per game? interesting that the one favoring Hakeem was the one you messed up.

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Thats assists...usually when someone lists 3 numbers its points, rebounds, and assists as those are generally accepted as the 3 main stats. If someone lists blocks, steals, or anything else they label them as such.

[Assani Fisher]

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Assani is a joke and should just be ignored. He's advocating Sabonis as a top 6 all-time center BASED ON CONJECTURE AND SPECULATION. Jesus christ.


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I've asked you this before and you've refused to answer: Where do you rank Sabonis then? Obviously we don't have a lot to go by and we must go by what little evidence and "conjecture and speculation" we have. This is such a silly argument because I'm at least ranking him while you're critisizing my ranking and refusing to provide your own.

Again, let me ask you: Bill Walton, while clearly a joke at times, defintely knows the game of basketball. Moreover, he has seen Sabonis much more than you. Bill Walton is on record as saying that Sabonis is his #7 center of all time. Now I know Walton gets carried away at times with silly statements like "Thats the greatest post feed I've ever seen!" or crap like that, but based on MULTIPLE quotes I've seen, this isn't a case of him getting carried away. What on earth makes you think that you're more qualified than Walton here?


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Get out all your sabermetric stats, or just your basic general ones. KG destroys Duncan. Duncan's "team impact" or whatever you want to say to try to counter that is not remotely close enough to make up the distance.

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Do you even look up stats and facts before you post?

PER: Duncan 25.2, KG 23.8

[MEbenhoe]

Hakeem's stats through his first 13 seasons aka before his last 5 which was a big decline

24.2 ppg 12.0 rpg 2.7 apg 3.4 bpg

Seeing how big timmy is already dropping off from his peak, do you really think his stats come close to comparing after 3 more seasons?

[Assani Fisher]

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You're ignoring minutes again. Garnett is playing ~5 minutes more per game in that stretch.

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Why is KG's durability being used as an argument against him rather than for him? I'd think only missing 15 regular season games over the past 8 seasons while averaging 39.4 mpg would be considered a good argument in KG's favor.

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Are you seriously not able to understand this?

If someone scores 20 points in 30 minutes thats better than someone scoring 21 points in 35 minutes because we assume that the backup will score more than 1 point in 5 minutes.

[Isura]

It seems like Kareem is under-rated since most people remember him during the Laker days, which was past his peak. My list would be

Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Russell