ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[sirio11]

Ok guys, time to place your bets.

Since the mods don't allow new threads here, I posted in NVG.

Here

Please post your favorites to get caught in that thread.

Thanks in advance.

[indolent]

hey and if he played heads up sitngos with two accounts, he'd always win!

[Cactus Jack]

Quoting a friend on another forum:

"the problem is that these internet kiddies have zero sense of ethics - they've come from a computer game background where 'cheats' are normal and the money on offer has twisted what little moral sense they ever had.."

I think he's right. I also think this is a symptom and the disease is widespread.

I also think if this gets out in the mainstream media, the effects will be very, very bad.

CJ

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
After his weak, lame, sad attempt at a rebuttal in here I'm eagerly awaiting a new blog or article on his website. I'm certain he'll attempt to indulge us in more lame self pitty. With that, why would a kid with so much potential, talent, and resort to using such methods to get ahead of the game? This is an obvious answer, but I still want to know why, why Justin, why? Will something like this put into question whether he really is a talented player? Does he lose all of his credibility? How will this affect him in the real world on and off the felt?

I wonder if his humongous ego will get in the way of him handling this in a professional matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is reacting like this (stolen from the OOT forum)

ZJ founds out he's been caught cheating.

[evil twin]

[ QUOTE ]
I too believe that is most likely true. For the person who asked why, it is because from chatting/posting w/ ZJ, it seemed like he was not inherently bad in terms of being a cheater in his core out to screw anyone at any cost, but moreso just someone with a somewhat hazy moral compass and a much stronger pull from the greed of making the $$$$ and fame of winning.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whilst I agree in principle that he probably didn't set out to chip dump to himself, I find it very hard to believe that out of all the tournaments he entered multiple entries in, he didn't once notice that he was short stacked at the same table as one of his other players and dump to himself.

[nincomepoop]

[ QUOTE ]
shaniac,

"It's probable that he didn't set out to do any kind of obvious chip-dumping in the MTTs or colluding in cash games."

I too believe that is most likely true. For the person who asked why, it is because from chatting/posting w/ ZJ, it seemed like he was not inherently bad in terms of being a cheater in his core out to screw anyone at any cost, but moreso just someone with a somewhat hazy moral compass and a much stronger pull from the greed of making the $$$$ and fame of winning. The problem is, when someone has a policy of creating their ethics based on what they and their friends decide can by some rationalization by deemed "within the rules" then it's not too far-fetched to see good intentions veer just slightly away from original intent, then a little more, then.....

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Well, I believe this all stems from a peer pressure, group legislation sort of thing. I'm almost certain many of the players ZJ plays alongside (brother, roomies, etc) and good friends are all a part of the scheme. And with a majority census, I can see why he's backpeddaling . . . as you said, when you have more than one person on your side, it makes it much easier to play the blame game . . . i.e. faulting Party. To me this is totally absurd, and for him to make attempts to come up with excuses, and contempts at party poker, that just goes to show how little integrity this kid has.

At least JJprod came out admitted guilt, addmitted it was wrong in doing so, and really made little to no excuse for his actions. If you read this ZJ, which you won't because you're probably boarding the jet back to Maryland right now so you can be in safe harbor . . . save face, be a real human being about it, and stop a minute and try to understand YOU ARE TO BLAME, not your goons, party, or anyone else.

[nincomepoop]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the highest ITM possible at each level? . . .

there is a limit to how often you can place in the money, even if you are playing against 9 monkeys . . . that number is 44.4% or 4/9

- Irieguy

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Against 9 monkeys yes, but how about against 6 or 9 ZeeJustin's?

In addition, I think ZJ is one of the players that defies Irieguys comment "The best player in the world against the worst players in the world would be very, very, very close to 44.4% ITM over infinity" needs to be adjusted for the ZeeJustin strategy on multi - accounting sit'n'go's . . . clearly ZJ's ITM would be much > 44.4%

[Schwartzy61]

So what's the record for replies on one thread?

Anyway, I find it amusing that just two weeks ago I was learning about fraud in my Auditing class and this situation arises with these two guys. I don't play in MTTs, except for the satellite here or there so this situation doesn't really affect me much.

Many accounting "experts" believe that every person WILL commit fraud if three things are present. These three things make up the fraud triangle. They are, in no particular order, Incentive (or Pressure), Opportunity, and Rationalization.

In hindsight, it seems ZJ "found his number" when it comes to when/if you will commit fraud.

INCENTIVE.
Probably the hardest one to fathom without direct knowledge of the man. But in his "excuse letter" to the forum a couple things are brought to light. Evidently no one respected his blind stealing raises anymore. So what's his play? Not to adjust his strategy, that would be too hard for this genius, his play was to just start new accounts so people won't recognize him. Now that's BS. Doyle Brunson published a book that described in relative detail how he played the great game of No Limit Hold 'Em. After it was published, what did Doyle do? He certainly didn't get plastic surgery and change his name. Nope, he adjusted and used his superior poker knowledge to continue to outplay others and remain a successful poker pro. What did ZJ do in that situation, he resorted to FRAUD! Such ashame for someone that was supposed to be the next hot thing in Internet poker. About the only thing I can infer from this is that ZJ wasn't as good as avertised, and to deal with the pressure of being a success he NEEDED to gain some kind of advantage. He could wipe the floor with me, I do not profess myself to be very good at poker, but for him to resort to fraud to continue his success, I just can't help but speculate it was because he just wasn't quite good enough to continue the kind of success he had early in his career once everyone knew who was and understood his play. It's pure speculation, but there are few reasons someone who is supposed to be THAT good would resort to this nonsense...

Opportunity.
Whoever decided to randomly click the PP icon for a few seconds to see what would happen provided the opportunity to commit such fraud. Really, I would like to know the idiot who decided to quadruple click his PP icon one day to "see what would happen." Then seeing that multiple login screens showed up, decided to login with different accounts, and then go about spreading this information such that many could take advantage of the loophole...

Rationalization. ZJ's "excuse" was full of rationalizations. It is something else to be able to lie to yourself like that. It's cliche, but just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean it's OK. Just because it isn't a BIG advantage, doesn't make it OK. Just because others bend rules on rakeback doesn't make it OK for you to completely break other rules. I can't fathom the kinds of things ZJ might have done in the corporate world if he had decided to go down that route. It seems his poker ability was surpassed only by his ability to rationalize. Think of the career repurcussions this would have had if he did something similar in a corporate environment.

In the end what ZJ did was Fraud. It wasn't on the grand scale of an Enron or PharMor, but everyone that ever played against him or his alter egos (and definitely if it was both at the same time) were defrauded by him plain and simple. ZJ isn't simply a cheater, he is a complete Fraud that deserved exactly what he got, and would probably face much more dire consequences if he tried something similar in a more regulated environment. He got off easy if you ask me...

[MisterNatural]

I'm more concerned with the security of online gaming more than I am disillusioned with a big name being caught. Obviously this is going on all of the time by god knows how many people.

I haven't read everything in this thread but it seems so dumb to play multiple accounts from the same IP address. I'm very surprised that anyone had to alert Party for this to be found out. It seems like it would be so easy for Party to be automatically informed that 2, let alone 6, accounts were playing from the same IP address. Even if it happens legitimately, in say a dorm, Party should be investigating very quickly to determine if there is collusion. Even if there is no foul play to be found, the accounts should be automatically blocked from playing in the same events. We should be asking why this isn't the case.

[ackbleh]

[ QUOTE ]

2. Ackbleh: There is no doubt that creating a different username gives a player a very huge edge, but I doubt that it's that hard for a player to set up another account, either through a spouse or close friend. Hypotheical situation: I get my wife, my sister, my brother, my mom and my dad to set up a Stars/Party account. Each month, I play on a different account and every 6 months I change the display name on each account. Would that primarly be any different from creating multiple accounts other than the fact I have not violated any T&C under most poker sites, which by the way do allow legitimate family members of the same household to create their own accounts. This is bound to happen and yes it does give a huge edge and win rate, but I don't see policy change going away from any poker site.
Lawrence

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Yeah this is the BS Lee is giving me and I don't buy it for a second. First of all, what you say is what ZJ did, he had 5 additional accounts in the names of friends and family. There's a reason we're all referring to those accounts as HIS accounts, even though they were in others' names. They WERE his accounts, regardless of the names on them. I don't buy that simply using someone else's name makes it OK or 'their account' if I'm the one always playing on it.

Your point relies on your assertion that having multiple accounts in different names that you're the primary controller of / player on is OK. Can you please show me a written statement from mike o'malley or Lee Jones agreeing to that? I bet you can't. The sites are trying to have it both ways. We both know that if they ever decide they WANT to close accounts and confiscate the funds, they will find a way to justify it in their terms. But when it comes to overall enforcement, they claim they can't do anything. It would be hard to catch everyone, I admit. A good effort would catch a lot of people though, and certainly discourage it. One of the major problems is that by not addressing the problem, the sites are tacitly approving of people having multiple accounts. People like ZJ think it's ok. But instead of going after people, sites are saying they can't really do anything.

Where does that leave us, the players? Some, like me, keep to one account. We do so because it is not clearly OK to have multiples. Some folks want to play by the rules. Others just don't want to risk having their funds frozen. Each reason would alone be good enough for me.

Those who do not care about the rules continue to enjoy increased, perhaps doubled, winrates. As they tell others of their success, word spreads and it becomes more popular. As more and more people get away with having multiple accounts, it begins to seem 'acceptable' and 'allowed' and 'normal', like it did to ZJ. All of these people... not caring about the rules... are gaining an edge on those of us who follow them, those who are careful. And all the while, the site is sitting back doing nothing, hanging US out to dry.

Again, show me the written statements from Lee and Mike, and I'll shut up. During my exchange with Lee last April, I tried to let him off the hook. I told him that if he would just tell me it's ok to create multiple accounts to play on, then it would be a level playing field, and I'd do so and be fine with it. He declined.