When you have a daughter....

[Blarg]

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Right. Withholding luxuries from your kids is stupid. They should have every senseless, expensive thing they want.

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That's not what I wrote. My point is that so many kids have cell phones with text messaging these days that it is no longer considered as a luxury. We can't appreciate this fact because cell phones weren't nearly as prevalent when we were 13-14 years old (I'm 31, btw).

All I'm saying is that if your daughter is the *only* kid amongst her friends who isn't able to text message with them, she'll resent you a little for it. If the only reason you provide to her is "You don't need it. I didn't have one at your age and I turned out fine", she'll think you're totally out of touch.

If anything, I think a cell phone is a good way to teach your kids some responsibility and money management. Allow them a certain number of hours' use per month, and if they go over that amount, they either pay the difference or lose the phone. Showing enough trust in them will go along way in them trusting you in return.

If they break your trust by going way over their minutes, then they lose the phone. However, at least you showed enough trust in them to be able to succeed or fail on their own, rather than you telling them that they would have failed anyway, so you're not going to even let them try.

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Whether teenagers view it as a luxury or not does not mean it isn't one. In my opinion, kids that consider cell phones a necessity need a kick in the ass. Their thinking is out of whack and someone needs to start teaching them what true necessities are or they'll continue to grow up with priorities and spending habits that are completely out of whack. If you think a phone is good for teaching responsibility, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that if it's your reason. If you're giving it to her just because the other kids have them, that's another story. And, yes, teenagers will find reasons to resent you. If you continually use "I don't want her to resent me" as a factor in your decision making with regard to teenagers, then you're going to be broke, have spoiled kids, and STILL end up resented.

edit: by the way, I agree with most of what you're saying. you have to give them a chance to be responsible. you have to give them a chance to succeed and to fail. then you have to help them figure out why they did either way. too many parents take the easy way out. they do what they do because it's easiest for them,not because it's best for the kid. i'm not really saying the kid shouldn't have a phone, just make sure the reasons are the right ones.

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I agree with this post entirely.

[Gunny Highway]

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You're talking extremes that you went through, but I don't think your particular situation is as analogous to what the OP is talking about as you seem to think it is.

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I wasn't talking about the OP's thing at all. The thread had kind of gone off on a parenting tangent so I just further hijacked. I was just curious what people thought.

[Gunny Highway]

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I had an authoritarian father too, by the way, probably more authoritarian than yours, who built up zero relationship with me, so I know where you're coming from on that. And I've got my own set of very real problems from that. But whereas his mistakes taught me some things to avoid, that doesn't mean I have confused having strong standards or being strict with a lack of respect, or love, for your children, nor do I find giving kids whatever they want, or whatever other kids have, to have the slightest bit to do with how much you love them.

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I had an authoritarian father but not at all cold or distant. He wasn't excessively brutal or anything. I was really just comparing a balance of two parents with very differing styles to that of two parents that are both nearer the middle. And whether one way might be better than the other. Some thing like this:

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vs.

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Both are balanced but different.

[Blarg]

I was responding to Hopey's post, not yours.

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See above.

[Hopey]

You're reading way too much into the point I was trying to convey. My post was as a response to a poster stating (I'm paraphrasing here) "No kid needs a cell phone, so I'm not going to allow her to have one". It was the knee-jerk reaction of the poster that I was commenting on. Times have changed, and that the majority of kids these days have cell phones. They're both conveniences and toys that are a method for kids to socialize with each other. They don't *need* them, but neither do they (or you) need the majority of the toys that they ask for.

I'm not advocating spoiling your child. I just don't think that allowing your child to own a cell phone (and act responsibly with it) in itself constitutes spoiling your child in this day and age. I don't believe that the idea of getting a teenager a cell phone as a gift should be seen as some monumental battle of wills between you and your kids. Cell phones are ubiquitous within our society, and are something that our kids will simply accept as a normal modern convenience. However, we can still remember the days when cell phones were not commonplace (and were the size of a large shoe) and were tremendously expensive, and the idea of a teenager owning one seems a bit "off" to us.

I'm hoping that my kids won't want cell phones for the sole reason that their friends have them. I want my kids to be individuals, but I won't force individuality on them simply for its own sake.

Perhaps I'll tell them that if they're old enough to want thing such as a phone, they're old enough to get a part-time job to purchase and pay for such a phone. Perhaps I'll purchase one for them as a Christmas gift with a set of conditions attached that they must live up to in order to keep it.

What I won't do, is forbid them from owning one simply because *I* think they're annoying or a waste of money. I'll let them know about the expense involved, etc... but it'll be up to them whether they really want one in the end. They'll be paying the bill for it, and they'll have to decide if it is worth the expense. If it's important to them, they'll make their payments and monitor their usage. If they screw up and can't make a payment on their phone, they'll lose it and hopefully learn a lesson in the process.

What I won't do is forbid them from owning a phone, simply because *I* see no value in it. There's a fine line between instilling your values in your child, and allowing your child to become his/her own person. Trying to control the minutiae of your child's life and desires becomes smothering to your child, and leads to resentment later on.

And the resentment won't come *solely* because you didn't purchase your child a cell phone. That's obviously not the case. Actually, it'll probably have nothing to do with it. It'll come because of all the times that you told your child that what he/she wants is "stupid" and that how he/she feels about the subject is irrelevant. It's not letting your child make mistakes, or to have an opinion that's different than your own. That's where the resentment comes from.

[Jdanz]

it's not that he thinks the texting thing in and of itself is a huge deal, he's trying to make a point. It's the whole system of parenting that he's trying to explain.

You want to be strong and you want to be caring, and set your kids up in a world where they're punished for bad things and rewarded for good things (this need not be materially).

His point (i believe) is a really really good one. In the simplest terms its that you shouldn't make decisions on what they should or not have by solely incoking your authoirity. Of course it's reasonable and within your rights to not get your kid a cell phone. The point is that you shouldn't keep things from your kids just to keep it from them, or they will resent you. You should make your parenting decisions for a reason, and really try to avoid arbitrariness (which it seems to be a lot of what he was disagreeing with).

It's not being firm that is a bad idea, it's being arbitrary, because kids don't respect that, and really they shouldn't.

edit: btw cell phones are awesome, who wouldn't want one? you can always turn it off, but they're just ridiculously useful. Everyone should have one if the cost isn't inhibative. Being "against" cellphones is like being against the internet.

[Blarg]

I would certainly agree that you should respect your kids, and that they're entitled to their own opinions. I don't think that them being without this or that little thing, however, implies a huge backstory of neglect or disrespect on a parent's part, or is an ominous portent of the future. I do think that it is a very trivial thing that is being blown up overmuch.

The poster you were responding to didn't want to give his kids text messaging -- not refuse her a cell phone at all, and not because he didn't see the value in it, from what I recall, but because he felt there were negatives to it. Whether we agree that the negatives were really there or not, it's important to dicussing his actions that we acknowledge that he wasn't simply being arbitrary or ornery -- central to discussing it, really.

Making the kid pay for their own phone usage is a decent idea, except if that just means you amp up their allowance or something so that you're paying for it anyway. I think many kids are fairly oblivious to money, and the more of it they have, the more likely that will be the case. Having a kid learn some responsibility and limits seems like a good idea to me.

In short, I think more has been brought to bear on this virtual non-issue than it can support. It's not important enough either way that whatever he does makes him even remotely a good or bad father, or says much of anything about his relationship with his daughter. There is just not enough drama here to extract so much drama from it. Frankly, it's a very minor matter and should be looked at as such by both father and daughter.

Personally, I would probably give it to her, but if she thought it was the end of the world if I didn't, I'd know for sure that I had done a lousy job of raising her. And the last thing I'd want to do is "buy back" her affections or esteem.

[Jdanz]

it's not the thing, it's the reasoning behind the thing.

[mwgr5]

This comes from the perspective of a recent high school/college student.

First, I think it is important to instill a sense of parental expectation for the child to earn good grades. Most children do not like dissapointing their parents. If children know you will be dissapointed by them earning bad grades they will be more likley to work hard in school.

Expensive rewards are unneccisary. Recognition of hard work is important though. Even though my father had a very lucrative job, I was expected to get good grades and I did. After my good report card my Parents would buy me pizza or take me out to dinner. Although this was not a large gift, the recognition was benificial.

About the text messaging. I think it is important for parents consumption and purchasing of items to be reflective of what they think their children should purchase. If parents buy expensive clothing, drive expensive cars, or have expensive gadgets, I think this value of material wealth is reflected onto children.