Trickier Sit N Go Question

[AMT]

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3rd place doesn't pay the bills much in SnG's. Greatest EV is bet not call. IMHO

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flight_risk?

[microbet]

Bait biggie to sell shorty down the river?

[paddymcg21]

So the fact ive won a a lot of sit n gos both live and online shows that I clearly dont know what im doing?? That's what i find so funny about this. It's like primary school, people are presuming that the people who have made the most posts are the better players, they arent! There may be very good players who post a lot but posting is not a pre requisite of a good player. Like the title states, it's a "tricky sng question" meaning people are allowed to have an opinion. It totally depends on the way you've been playing as well as how your opponents have been playing. Generally the small blind could well fold here no matter what anyone says, he really could. Personally after playing for a few hours im not really interested in less than doubling my stake and going for 3rd. I would push here. The fact people are telling me im wrong for doing this proves that you don't have the capacity to acknowledge other people's views or to accept that you're not always right. I suppose my main point in this post is that just because you've made 1 million posts, it doesnt mean you're a better player than anyone else. Next you'll be arguing that players like Gus Hansen and Phil Ivey are wrong in raising or re raising with 56 off. If you're a good player theres not only 1 way to win.

[Kibby]

Paddy-

What people are saying, people who have tens of thousands of sngs under their belts who have beaten the highest levels of sngs consistently for years, is that this particular question is not one that there are multiple right answers to. There are questions where this is the case and I hope you see that. Questions like, what is PI to the 28th digit or how often will AA beat KK allin preflop. Just because you don't understand that this happens to be one of those questions doesn't make them wrong for telling you it is. SnGs happen to be one of those types of games where there are right or wrong answers depending on the circumstances. If we were asking questions about raising ranges PF at a certain blind level or how to estimate a callers calling range to determine a push, I would find it unlikely that any of the posters you've had difficulty with would take as firm of a stance.

Also, they are assuming your goal is to make the most money. If this is not your goal then there are other possibilities. If you happen not to like third place so much that maximizing your hourly rate is something that you would sacrifice, so be it.

[dirtysanchez]

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So the fact ive won a a lot of sit n gos both live and online shows that I clearly dont know what im doing?? That's what i find so funny about this. It's like primary school, people are presuming that the people who have made the most posts are the better players, they arent! There may be very good players who post a lot but posting is not a pre requisite of a good player. Like the title states, it's a "tricky sng question" meaning people are allowed to have an opinion. It totally depends on the way you've been playing as well as how your opponents have been playing. Generally the small blind could well fold here no matter what anyone says, he really could. Personally after playing for a few hours im not really interested in less than doubling my stake and going for 3rd. I would push here. The fact people are telling me im wrong for doing this proves that you don't have the capacity to acknowledge other people's views or to accept that you're not always right. I suppose my main point in this post is that just because you've made 1 million posts, it doesnt mean you're a better player than anyone else. Next you'll be arguing that players like Gus Hansen and Phil Ivey are wrong in raising or re raising with 56 off. If you're a good player theres not only 1 way to win.

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paddy, there are at least 3 or 4 better and more experienced sng players than me that have responded in this thread. Ive played about 8500 sngs, you? also, your point about raising and reraising 56o is silly, because this is a sng. there is 1 single solitary correct way to play in bubble situations. this isnt deepstacked cash, stacks here are less than 5 bbs deep. any error here costs you a lot of money. You offer nothing but the fact that you won a couple sngs as proof that you are even qualified to argue this w/ people like citanul, flourescent hippo, chrisV, etc. This is ludicrous, you cannot possibly be this dense. please reread the thread and present a coherent, rational argument if you want us to do anything but laugh.

[dirtysanchez]

also,

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It totally depends on the way you've been playing as well as how your opponents have been playing. Generally the small blind could well fold here no matter what anyone says, he really could.

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all of this is either blatantly wrong or completely irrelevant. what to do if SB folds has been addressed.

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Personally after playing for a few hours im not really interested in less than doubling my stake and going for 3rd.

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well then personally, you are not really interested in maximizing your equity and winning the most money possible

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I would push here. The fact people are telling me im wrong for doing this proves that you don't have the capacity to acknowledge other people's views or to accept that you're not always right.

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no. the fact that so many people are telling you that you're wrong does not prove we dont have the capacity to acknowledge your view. we have acknowledged it, but its very very wrong in every aspect to a startling degree for someone capable of typing complete sentences and operating a computer.

[paddymcg21]

Well dirtysanchez, your comment about my intellectual density for someone who can type and operate a computer has most certainly put me in my place and proved your point to no end. No wait, it hasn't actually. Are you seriously telling me there are no games where you would consider pushing in this spot?? Have you played 8500 live sit n goes or are you one of them degenerates who doesnt leave his laptop? I've only been playing poker 2 years and id estimate ive played around 1500 sng's. In all honesty despite the short amount of time i've been playing I dont think i've met very many better players than myself. I play regularly at card rooms in London and tournaments at my university where there are many good players (MTT's) and I am telling you that I cash in over 30% of them, my last 4 tourneys with fields of 30 on average ive come 1st, 4th, 5th, 1st (I admit im on a bit of a hot streak) No doubt I play for much lower stakes than you but being a student I believe that depositing 20 dollars and turning it into 1300 dollars is quite reasonable progress over 2 years. (thats just online) Why then when I make this kind of move on a regular basis do I come out on top more often than not? I never think in terms of the big formulae as has been posted on this page (which I accept may be a flaw in my game and learning to understand them could well improve my game) but I understand basic maths and pot odds easily and can apply them instantly in my head. Most of the time I know my odds without realy having to think which saves me a lot of time. The amount of sng's ive won doesnt matter (though i win more than my fair share), any human being is qualified to argue his/her case. Also I'm interested, u named a few people in your post, how do you know theyre great players?? Do you know them?? I also dont get why you're so eager to "correct" me. Surely if im making moves like these and obviously losing all my money all the time, then isnt that a good thing for every1 else?? Im just 1 extra fish to be taken to the cleaners no?? If you thought you were correct then you wouldn't go to such lengths to convince yourself. . I mean convince me.

[Pudge714]

All the STTFers are right here. SnG play is very counter intuitive I could post a dozen hands from any given set of SNGs I play and cash players or MTTers would think I suck at poker or don't know what I'm doing. When in actuality I'm right,

[bigt439]

this thread is a gigantic waste of space.

this is not a hard question and the fact that david thought it deserved a special thread is laughable.

i dunno why but live pros just suck at icm and stuff... part of the reason why the 5K and up tournies are so juicy.

[dirtysanchez]

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Well dirtysanchez, your comment about my intellectual density for someone who can type and operate a computer has most certainly put me in my place and proved your point to no end. No wait, it hasn't actually. Are you seriously telling me there are no games where you would consider pushing in this spot??

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There is 1 clearly correct play here, so no i would never push in this exact spot. different stack sizes will obviously change this.

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Have you played 8500 live sit n goes or are you one of them degenerates who doesnt leave his laptop?

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irrelevant, but i have played live and online, although the 8500 i mentioned are all online. Whether this is live or online is completely inconsequential.

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I've only been playing poker 2 years and id estimate ive played around 1500 sng's. In all honesty despite the short amount of time i've been playing I dont think i've met very many better players than myself.

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i dont have a hard time believing this, since you obv think your gut feeling is better than ICM, it stands to reason you dont think many people are better than you.

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I play regularly at card rooms in London and tournaments at my university where there are many good players (MTT's) and I am telling you that I cash in over 30% of them, my last 4 tourneys with fields of 30 on average ive come 1st, 4th, 5th, 1st (I admit im on a bit of a hot streak)

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nice sample size, completely irrelevant.

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No doubt I play for much lower stakes than you but being a student I believe that depositing 20 dollars and turning it into 1300 dollars is quite reasonable progress over 2 years. (thats just online)

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no doubt you do play lower stakes. im 21 and have been playing online for less than year tho. 20 into 1300 huh? congrats im not touching this one but you have a BR of ~6 buyins for the level of sngs you are arguing about.

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Why then when I make this kind of move on a regular basis do I come out on top more often than not? I never think in terms of the big formulae as has been posted on this page (which I accept may be a flaw in my game and learning to understand them could well improve my game) but I understand basic maths and pot odds easily and can apply them instantly in my head.

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perhaps b/c the basic maths and pot-odds of which you speak are not applicable here? I highly doubt you would even recognize this situation if it happened to you.

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Most of the time I know my odds without realy having to think which saves me a lot of time. The amount of sng's ive won doesnt matter (though i win more than my fair share), any human being is qualified to argue his/her case.

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of course, but you should learn to accept it when you are wrong and learn.


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Also I'm interested, u named a few people in your post, how do you know theyre great players?? Do you know them??

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here is the graph of all the sngs flourescent hippo has played on pokerstars, as tracked by a 3rd party website called sharkscope.




perhaps you should email them and let them know that their fancy numbers and graphs dont mean they know whos good and whos not?

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Im just 1 extra fish to be taken to the cleaners no?? If you thought you were correct then you wouldn't go to such lengths to convince yourself. . I mean convince me.

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this is actually a fairly standard situation. you took the initiative to join 2p2, and i do not make a habit of withholding information from members of this board for my own profit. honestly you are making $650 a year from your impressive sng play, im not really worried about seeing you at any tables of mine, sng or otherwise, because it prob wont happen given your current BR and skill level.