ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[Losing all]

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All,

I missed the last 500 pots and now have had some drinks.

What has happened? What's new? Have any new dramas unfolded?

Cool.

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No new news, just ethics debates. to rat or not to rat. what's worse murder, cheating at poker, or smoking crack with 8 yr olds. etc..

[meleader2]

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Anyone know who Curtains is???


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He's a poster on STT forums. Bunch of multi-accounters over there. I have been working hard all morning at reporting them.



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you're a goddam retard. i have several hundred HH's before the new party release on Curtains while observing, to review to help my own game/inputing info into SNGPT and to PM him for reasons for his play in particular instances. in NONE of them have i noticed anyhting odd or strange.

you need to come off your goddam pedestal.

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If Curtains doesn't have multiple accounts, he has nothing to worry about. BTW, I'm sure that many of the people on that private forum think I'm a retard and thus have no qualms about cheating me out of money. That seems to be a prevalent attitude around here.

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well now i understand why G.W. Bush is your avatar. seems highly suiting. WMA or air? i think air. good luck on ur quest. let me know when your mission is accomplished.

[betadecay]

Also setting up extra accounts to keep people off your style is CHEATING. Why do B&M pro's stay succesful? because they have to adapt in a game where people are constantly observing them. This is one of the most skillfull and artfull aspects of poker. ZJ is completely sidestepping the majority of his opponents by doing this. Not everyone online has the ability to make multiple accounts. ZJ is exploiting that advantage. An advantage that is prohibited by every sites TnC.

[meleader2]

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All,

When evaluating situations like this, I think it's important to use logical thinking to attempt to determine the intent behind these actions to the best of our ability. I agree that all cheaters should be punished harshly, but I also believe that the intent of one's actions should be taken into account to get a proper context of what's going on.

When someone puts two entries into a tournament, it is believable that they just wanted two shots and effectively just wanted to increase their earn in terms of number of tourneys/time they are able to play. Someone like this may even have a plan (sitting out or whatever) for the unlikely situation in which they end up at the same table with both accounts. The more infrequently this is done and the more rare (ie: only for special $1k buyin tournaments or whatever that only come by once in a while) the event is, the more likely their intent is benign (not that that excuses their actions).

On the flip side, someone who puts SIX HORSES into tournaments in a planned, ongoing manner is far more likely to be doing this with the intent of taking advantage of having multiple accounts at the same table and exploiting every benefit this provides. When this person finds himself at the same table, yet still decides to play on with both accounts, and even for future occurrences, does not make a plan of sitting out (or reducing horses so this is far less likely to happen again), then we must consider how reasonable it is that this person took this action for any reason other than cheating to the fullest extent. Looking at this specific case, the rationalizations that ZJ uses in his post (I did nothing wrong, everyone does it, it's not that big an advantage, Party is screwing me over, anyone would do this for the easy money, etc.) lend even more support to the possibility of what many of us would consider very serious premeditated cheating.

Yes, it is possible that ZJ just wanted more entries into tournaments than he was able to play sequentially. But there is a lot of evidence pointing to him planning a strategy with which to cheat online MTTs in any and every way possible. Knowing this, I find it very likely that his actions went far beyond simple multi-accounting.

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i have 3 SN's on UB that i use to multitable ring games on at the same time. i DO NOT play on the same table, i simply use it to get around the 3 table max that UB sets forth. they are fully aware of this as i have emailed them to transfer money between my 3 accounts.

it is unfortunate that self-righteous tools such as "bud light" exist simply just to inflate situations that are already awful to begin with just to try to find a scape goat.

[tolbiny]

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Playing 2 accounts in the same single table tournament would be an enormous advantage. Absolutely giant. I don't think playing 2 accounts in the same MTT makes much difference at all unless both accounts end up at the same table near the end of the tourney.

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I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong, but I would MUCH rather have single-entries in ten STTs than double entries in 5. (I think, at least.) It's just that dumping in a SnG doesn't double your prize EV. Or am I completely missing the point?

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Think about chip dumping in the other direction. 4 people left. one of your accounts has a ton of chips. The other account is almost broke. it is pretty damn easy to make sure your short stack doesn't bubble.

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Even if you decided not to dump- having one less person attacking your blinds would be an advantage.

[raisins]

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Because while it is debatable that drugs may harm people, it is a fact that a pro entering multiple accounts into the same tournament is unfairly hurting people.

When you have to bring up indirect causes of drug use to find the the "harm" it causes, the wrong doing is not as clear cut. Not to mention there is a difference between what is illegal, and what you would turn in your friends for doing.

I wouldn't turn in a friend if he drove home drunk, but if he killed someone on the way home I probably would.

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Let me put this in a bit of context. My posts have been in response to some who took a real hardline stance against Shaniac and any others that knew without saying anything. Multiple accounts certainly hurts people and it hurts the game. I'm relieved this is getting more attention and that cheaters have been caught.

Betraying a confidence when someone is doing something illegal or unethical is not a good default rule and it would make for a crappy community if everyone was to do it. An absolute position on this issue destroys trust. Obviously there's a time and a place for it but accusing people who don't jump to snitch of cowardice, consorting with criminal scum and immaturity is too extreme a position by far.

There is very little debate that putting money into the hands of the people that control most drug markets (especially anything beyond hydro marijuana) does result in people being harmed.

I think you believe that a lot of this is a judgement call and that is my position as well.

raisins

[Equal]

Here's my token reply since I feel left out.

[Bud Light]

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Get the F over youself. Tell me a time you had a friend or family member come to you about something quasi-legal and you ran straight to the authorities. Or are you 17 with no real life experiences yet?



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That's what's cool about me. I don't like any of you [censored] and have no problem turning any of you in.


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Wrong. There is nothing cool about you.

And there are times where I would turn someone in.

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Ooooohhhh. Good one. Listen you little freak, when SI finds out their poker poster boy was banned from a poker site and had $100K confiscated and prints that story, do you think anyone is going to give a [censored] about your "snitching-ethics?" [censored] no they aren't going to give a rat's. Public opinion is going to turn massively against online gambling and Congress will pass a law banning it and most of you cheaters will be out of job. Servers you right.

[N 82 50 24]

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Later on I played a hand that I emailed Lee specifically about. I played a hand against a regular player who I knew well but was on a 2nd account. The player is craze9, a 2+2 poster, who was playing as 'XX JOKER XX'. At that point the 'JOKER' account hadn't been around long, so I treated him like a new player. He flopped trips against my big pair and I paid him off for a full $1000 stack in a 5/10 NL cash game. I would most certainly NOT have paid him off if I'd known who it was. He knew how to play the hand against me, but I could not use my experience playing against him to make the laydown at the appropriate time. Lee's team investigated and confirmed that it was indeed craze playing on his brother's account, but his response was to shrug his shoulders and say that Stars was not going to do anything.

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Guess who was in the WCOOP ME?

xxTHEJOKERxx and craze9.

Anyone want to hang him? I have a mob ready if someone would get the hardcore flaming going...

[shaniac]

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There is very little debate that putting money into the hands of the people that control most drug markets (especially anything beyond hydro marijuana) does result in people being harmed.

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does that statement include "shwag" weed as well?

Seriously, though, I actually think the evil behind most drug markets would dissapear anyway if they were legalized, but that's a fantasy.

Nice post, especially about moral absolutes.