Internet Poker... doomed from Day 1

[OneTwoThreeROBOT]

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I can't make this much clearer:

ethics =/ rules.

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No they don't. But disobeying rules that you AGREED to follow IS unethical.

[bulldawgblue]

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MNpoker has said it before. Maybe this is more clear:

Poker sites control the game. They are in charge of creating the rules.

You, the poker player, are in charge of finding a site with rules you can live with and obey. If you break these rules, you are cheating.

Cheating is unethical.

Party says PT is okay. Therefore it is not illegal or unethical to use at Party.

People are obfuscating this argument by bringing in Bots (which are unethical because they break the rules and for NO OTHER REASON), and notepads in casinos, and a bunch of other things. It's really much simpler than that.

I can't make it any clearer if this doesn't work.

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I can't make this much clearer:

ethics =/ rules.

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Yea, really......I agree with the fact that the poker sites makes the rules. But rules and ethics aren't one in the same. The point is that this whole ethics debate is just a red herring. Ethical behavior, especially on a topic as shakey as GAMBLING, is totally subjective. Bots are illegal under T&C, PT is not. Thats the only thing that matters.

[OneTwoThreeROBOT]

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Yea, really......I agree with the fact that the poker sites makes the rules. But rules and ethics aren't one in the same. The point is that this whole ethics debate is just a red herring. Ethical behavior, especially on a topic as shakey as GAMBLING, is totally subjective. Bots are illegal under T&C, PT is not. Thats the only thing that matters.

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Why is gambling a shaky topic? And why do you think ethics are subjective here and not elsewhere? IMO, they are not. You can apply ethics to gambling the same way you can apply them to the Olympics, relationships, and pretty much anything else.

It's unethical to cheat. It doesn't matter if you're taking bribes as judge for Olympic figure skating, or if you're using Bots. It's cheating, and it's unethical.

I don't see why you view gambling in such a negative moral light that you consider the ethics involved to be subjective. Were you okay with ZeeJustin's actions?

[PairTheBoard]

I think it's very unfair that people with PT can see the showdown hole cards of a player that the rest of the table can't see. This is an Unfair Advantage that should be recognized by Party Poker as a violation of its TOS.

Party Poker has exacerbated this problem with its new policy of not showing Hand Histories in the chat box while still writing them to the user's Hard Drive - albeit on a slightly delayed basis. The regular player can no longer look back to see how a hand was played while a Software-Assisted player can.

In my opinion, Party Poker should either stop supplying Hand Histories altogether - except per email request, or they should simply Buy Up the Poker Tracker Company and supply Poker Tracker Services to ALL their customers gratis.

In the medium to long run they need to Revamp their entire Software System to make it Secure from Bots. I doubt their Software Engineering Department is up to the job. They need to bring in some real pros to get it done. They are a multi-billion dollar corporation now and Bots are a real threat to their business. The kiddie game is down the street.

PairTheBoard

[Gregatron]

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My response commented on the poster's logic, not his opinion. But speaking of opinions, contrary to the hippy pc logic you seem to espouse, not everyone's opinion is equally valid, esp if it is based on flawed logic.

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Flawed logic?

Like conflating someone's actual statements (e.g., about software) with a different concept (e.g., books)? Or assuming from statements someone made that they were actually proposing an argument and then proceeding to attack the argument you imagined into existence using logical fallacies that you try to pass off as sound logic...

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The argument I was addressing was that an advantage that one person has that others may not have access to is unfair. I argue (though sarcasm) this is logically flawed and stupid. Saying that I was conflating books and software is itself a strawman (see link above) -- the poster's logic had already done that.

[betadecay]

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I think it's very unfair that people with PT can see the showdown hole cards of a player that the rest of the table can't see. This is an Unfair Advantage that should be recognized by Party Poker as a violation of its TOS.

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again, the argument here is that everyone has access and is allowed to use a hud if they want too. Also players with out a hud can still look up mucked hands in the hand history. they are not barred from doing this. The huds is really not giving anything to any players in this regard. It just makes it so they don't have to click the hand history after every hand. Something I was doing for months before getting pt.

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Party Poker has exacerbated this problem with its new policy of not showing Hand Histories in the chat box while still writing them to the user's Hard Drive - albeit on a slightly delayed basis. The regular player can no longer look back to see how a hand was played while a Software-Assisted player can.

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That's not true. Everyone can do this wether they have pt or not. That's why Party writes the HH's on your hard drive. C:/programfiles/partygaming/partypoker/handhistories. Everyone can review the way a hand was played. Everyone can see mucked cards. PT just catalouges the hands for you.(not observed hands, but I don't think you are refering to observed hands here)

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In my opinion, Party Poker should either stop supplying Hand Histories altogether - except per email request, or they should simply Buy Up the Poker Tracker Company and supply Poker Tracker Services to ALL their customers gratis.



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Should Party buy everyone TOP and SSHE too? and give them subscriptions to BLUFF and CardPlayer?

[OneTwoThreeROBOT]

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again, the argument here is that everyone has access and is allowed to use a hud if they want too. Also players with out a hud can still look up mucked hands in the hand history. they are not barred from doing this. The huds is really not giving anything to any players in this regard. It just makes it so they don't have to click the hand history after every hand. Something I was doing for months before getting pt.

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I don't agree with this. It deviates from the point about the T&C. Bots are widely available to the public as well, but they are still immoral to use and illegal. Ethics have nothing to do with the amount of people that have access to whatever. This weakens our agrument against Bots, because they are also available.

If it violates the TC you agreed to, it's wrong. Breaking a contract is unethical.

[betadecay]

well there is two clauses here. They have access and they are allowed. This is not the case with bots. PT will obviously give an advantage to players that use the stats well(this ev is very overrated though, mostly by bad players). But it is not an unfair advantage. Party's TnC does not apply to PT.

[dhattis333]

I can't make this much clearer:

ethics =/ rules.

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In most cases, it is true that rules/laws are separate from ethics. For example, most would agree that it is not unethical to smoke marijuana, but it is still illegal. However poker is a game, and to cheat in a game is unethical. Thus, in order to be ethical while playing a game, you must follow the rules of the game, whatever the rules may be. Using a corked bat in the MLB is unethical because it is against the rules. If you were playing in a league that allowed corked bats, then using a corked bat would be ok. In the “league” of online poker, pokertracker is allowed and pokerbots aren’t. Thus pokertracker is ethical and pokerbots aren’t.

[OneTwoThreeROBOT]

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I can't make this much clearer:

ethics =/ rules.




In most cases, it is true that rules/laws are separate from ethics. For example, most would agree that it is not unethical to smoke marijuana, but it is still illegal. However poker is a game, and to cheat in a game is unethical. Thus, in order to be ethical while playing a game, you must follow the rules of the game, whatever the rules may be. Using a corked bat in the MLB is unethical because it is against the rules. If you were playing in a league that allowed corked bats, then using a corked bat would be ok. In the “league” of online poker, pokertracker is allowed and pokerbots aren’t. Thus pokertracker is ethical and pokerbots aren’t.

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Bingo. Smoking marijuana is illegal but not immoral because you never made a contract with the government that said you wouldn't do it (and because it doesn't hurt or steal from anyone).

If you're playing at Party Poker, then you DID make a deal with them. Remember that little box you checked when you signed up your account, the one that says "I have read and understand the terms and conditions, blah blah blah?" Clicking that box is the internet way of doing contracts.

Rules DO equal ethics when they are in the form of a contract you voluntarily signed. That's why Pokertracker is okay both legally and ethically.