how can this NOT be collusion?

[NYplayer]

I reviewd all of my hands from that session. about 250 hands. Most of the time things look normal. If I had to put money on it I would bet they are not colluding. They hard play each other heads up. And they certainly dont collude at every opportunity. A few of their hands would suggest that they are not working as a team at all. I'll let you decide:

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:18:02

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $24585.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $25173.
piejay is at seat 4 with $10233.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $41064.
The button is at seat 5.

NYPlayer posts the small blind of $150.
dumbanimal posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: 7h Kc
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

piejay raises to $600. hogbird calls. NYPlayer
folds. dumbanimal calls.

Flop (board: 6s Jh Jc):

dumbanimal checks. piejay bets $300. hogbird calls.
dumbanimal raises to $600. piejay folds. hogbird
folds. dumbanimal is returned $300 (uncalled).



Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $2850.
dumbanimal wins $2848.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:35:26

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $21637.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $22006.
piejay is at seat 4 with $16070.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $56257.
The button is at seat 3.

piejay posts the small blind of $150.
hogbird posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: 9d 8d
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

NYPlayer raises to $600. dumbanimal re-raises to
$900. piejay folds. hogbird re-raises to $1200.
NYPlayer calls. dumbanimal calls.

Flop (board: Tc Ah 5c):

hogbird bets $300. NYPlayer folds. dumbanimal
calls.

Turn (board: Tc Ah 5c As):

hogbird bets $600. dumbanimal calls.

River (board: Tc Ah 5c As 4s):

hogbird checks. dumbanimal checks.



Showdown:

hogbird shows Kd Ac.
hogbird has Kd Ac Tc Ah As: three aces.
dumbanimal mucks cards.
(dumbanimal has 9h Jh.)


Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $5550.
hogbird wins $5548 with three aces.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:36:14

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $19987.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $18406.
piejay is at seat 4 with $16370.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $61203.
The button is at seat 0.

dumbanimal posts the small blind of $150.
piejay posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Th 9d
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

hogbird raises to $600. NYPlayer folds. dumbanimal
re-raises to $900. piejay calls. hogbird calls.

Flop (board: 8h 4c 6d):

dumbanimal bets $300. piejay raises to $600.
hogbird re-raises to $900. dumbanimal re-raises to
$1200. piejay calls. hogbird calls.

Turn (board: 8h 4c 6d Td):

dumbanimal bets $600. piejay calls. hogbird raises
to $1200. dumbanimal re-raises to $1800. piejay
folds. hogbird calls.

River (board: 8h 4c 6d Td 5c):

dumbanimal bets $600. hogbird folds. dumbanimal is
returned $600 (uncalled).



Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $10500.
dumbanimal wins $10498.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:38:52

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $17287.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $20052.
piejay is at seat 4 with $19214.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $59401.
The button is at seat 0.

dumbanimal posts the small blind of $150.
piejay posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Kc 9c
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

hogbird raises to $600. NYPlayer folds. dumbanimal
calls. piejay calls.

Flop (board: Qs Jc Td):

dumbanimal checks. piejay checks. hogbird checks.


Turn (board: Qs Jc Td 6c):

dumbanimal checks. piejay checks. hogbird checks.


River (board: Qs Jc Td 6c 3d):

dumbanimal checks. piejay checks. hogbird checks.




Showdown:

dumbanimal shows 5h 7h.
dumbanimal has 7h Qs Jc Td 6c: queen high.
piejay shows 7d 9d.
piejay has 7d 9d Qs Jc Td: queen/jack high.
hogbird shows Th 9s.
hogbird has Th 9s Qs Jc Td: a pair of tens.


Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $1800.
hogbird wins $1798 with a pair of tens.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:38:52

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $17287.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $20052.
piejay is at seat 4 with $19214.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $59401.
The button is at seat 0.

dumbanimal posts the small blind of $150.
piejay posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Kc 9c
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

hogbird raises to $600. NYPlayer folds. dumbanimal
calls. piejay calls.

Flop (board: Qs Jc Td):

dumbanimal checks. piejay checks. hogbird checks.


Turn (board: Qs Jc Td 6c):

dumbanimal checks. piejay checks. hogbird checks.


River (board: Qs Jc Td 6c 3d):

dumbanimal checks. piejay checks. hogbird checks.




Showdown:

dumbanimal shows 5h 7h.
dumbanimal has 7h Qs Jc Td 6c: queen high.
piejay shows 7d 9d.
piejay has 7d 9d Qs Jc Td: queen/jack high.
hogbird shows Th 9s.
hogbird has Th 9s Qs Jc Td: a pair of tens.


Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $1800.
hogbird wins $1798 with a pair of tens.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:48:33

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $12181.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $22594.
piejay is at seat 4 with $12306.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $68831.
The button is at seat 4.

hogbird posts the small blind of $150.
NYPlayer posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Qs Jc
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

dumbanimal raises to $600. piejay folds. hogbird
calls. NYPlayer calls.

Flop (board: Kc Ac 4h):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer checks. dumbanimal bets
$300. hogbird calls. NYPlayer calls.

Turn (board: Kc Ac 4h 5h):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer checks. dumbanimal checks.


River (board: Kc Ac 4h 5h Qh):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer checks. dumbanimal checks.




Showdown:

hogbird shows Kd 3d.
hogbird has Kd Kc Ac 5h Qh: a pair of kings.
NYPlayer mucks cards.
(NYPlayer has Qs Jc.)
dumbanimal mucks cards.
(dumbanimal has Qd Js.)


Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $2700.
hogbird wins $2698 with a pair of kings.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:59:02

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $22223.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $19430.
piejay is at seat 4 with $4795.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $84409.
The button is at seat 0.

dumbanimal posts the small blind of $150.
piejay posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Ks Jc
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

hogbird raises to $600. NYPlayer re-raises to $900.
dumbanimal calls. piejay folds. hogbird calls.

Flop (board: Js 4h Jd):

dumbanimal checks. hogbird checks. NYPlayer bets
$300. dumbanimal calls. hogbird raises to $600.
NYPlayer calls. dumbanimal calls.

Turn (board: Js 4h Jd Td):

dumbanimal bets $600. hogbird calls. NYPlayer
raises to $1200. dumbanimal calls. hogbird calls.


River (board: Js 4h Jd Td 9h):

dumbanimal checks. hogbird checks. NYPlayer bets
$600. dumbanimal folds. hogbird folds. NYPlayer
is returned $600 (uncalled).



Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $8400.
NYPlayer wins $8398.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:59:39

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $27921.50.
SESESE is at seat 1 with $30000.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $16730.
piejay is at seat 4 with $4495.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $81709.
The button is at seat 3.

piejay posts the small blind of $150.
hogbird posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Tc 3c
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

NYPlayer folds. dumbanimal raises to $600. piejay
calls. hogbird calls.

Flop (board: 7c Ah 3d):

piejay checks. hogbird checks. dumbanimal bets
$300. piejay raises to $600. hogbird calls.
dumbanimal calls.

Turn (board: 7c Ah 3d Kc):

piejay bets $600. hogbird raises to $1200.
dumbanimal re-raises to $1800. piejay folds.
hogbird calls.

River (board: 7c Ah 3d Kc 2c):

hogbird checks. dumbanimal bets $600. hogbird
raises to $1200. dumbanimal folds. hogbird is
returned $600 (uncalled).



Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $9000.
hogbird wins $8998.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 23:10:03

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $19964.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $11922.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $88895.
The button is at seat 5.

NYPlayer posts the small blind of $150.
dumbanimal posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Th Tc
dumbanimal: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

hogbird raises to $600. NYPlayer re-raises to $900.
dumbanimal calls. hogbird re-raises to $1200.
NYPlayer calls. dumbanimal calls.

Flop (board: 2d 6c Jd):

NYPlayer checks. dumbanimal checks. hogbird bets
$300. NYPlayer raises to $600. dumbanimal calls.
hogbird calls.

Turn (board: 2d 6c Jd 9s):

NYPlayer bets $600. dumbanimal calls. hogbird
calls.

River (board: 2d 6c Jd 9s Jh):

NYPlayer bets $600. dumbanimal folds. hogbird
calls.



Showdown:

NYPlayer shows Th Tc.
NYPlayer has Th Tc Jd 9s Jh: two pair, jacks and tens.
hogbird mucks cards.
(hogbird has Ah Kd.)


Hand Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $8400.
NYPlayer wins $8399 with two pair, jacks and tens.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 23:14:43

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $19697.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $7004.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $94067.
The button is at seat 3.

hogbird posts the small blind of $150.
NYPlayer posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Kc Ah
dumbanimal: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

dumbanimal raises to $600. hogbird calls. NYPlayer
re-raises to $900. dumbanimal calls. hogbird calls.


Flop (board: 5c 7s 4h):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer bets $300. dumbanimal
calls. hogbird calls.

Turn (board: 5c 7s 4h 4c):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer bets $600. dumbanimal
folds. hogbird calls.

River (board: 5c 7s 4h 4c 6c):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer checks.



Showdown:

hogbird shows Ad 2d.
hogbird has Ad 7s 4h 4c 6c: a pair of fours.
NYPlayer shows Kc Ah.
NYPlayer has Kc Ah 7s 4h 4c: a pair of fours, ace/king kickers.


Hand Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $4800.
NYPlayer wins $4799 with a pair of fours.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 23:15:32

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $20296.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $9702.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $90767.
The button is at seat 3.

hogbird posts the small blind of $150.
NYPlayer posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: Jc Ad
dumbanimal: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

dumbanimal raises to $600. hogbird re-raises to $900.
NYPlayer re-raises to $1200. dumbanimal calls.
hogbird calls.

Flop (board: 2c Qh Ts):

hogbird checks. NYPlayer bets $300. dumbanimal
folds. hogbird folds. NYPlayer is returned $300
(uncalled).



Hand Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $3600.
NYPlayer wins $3599.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[catlover]

Can UB management be trusted to look into this in an objective manner?

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
I reviewd all of my hands from that session. about 250 hands. Most of the time things look normal. If I had to put money on it I would bet they are not colluding. They hard play each other heads up. And they certainly dont collude at every opportunity. A few of their hands would suggest that they are not working as a team at all. I'll let you decide:

Hand at Owen Sound ($300/$600 Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 01/Apr/06 22:18:02

NYPlayer is at seat 0 with $24585.50.
dumbanimal is at seat 3 with $25173.
piejay is at seat 4 with $10233.50.
hogbird is at seat 5 with $41064.
The button is at seat 5.

NYPlayer posts the small blind of $150.
dumbanimal posts the big blind of $300.

NYPlayer: 7h Kc
dumbanimal: -- --
piejay: -- --
hogbird: -- --

Pre-flop:

piejay raises to $600. hogbird calls. NYPlayer
folds. dumbanimal calls.

Flop (board: 6s Jh Jc):

dumbanimal checks. piejay bets $300. hogbird calls.
dumbanimal raises to $600. piejay folds. hogbird
folds. dumbanimal is returned $300 (uncalled).



Hand Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $2850.
dumbanimal wins $2848.
----------------------------------------------------------------


[/ QUOTE ]

This type of play is a great collusion play as PieJay has a lot of pressure on him b/c he still has a player who called behind him.

[whodaman]

they both sure do play some questionable hands preflop... especially when the other is in the pot.

I dont like what i see. There's no proof here, but i just wonder if we could see there cards what we would see.

[ggbman]

I was pretty drunk when i made my original statement, but why not just show what you had that hand? That could clear up this issue incredibly quickly. I understand why you would be enraged if these accusations are false, but at the same time, i'm sure you can see that the HH there looks ridiculous. So why not just clear this up quickly?

[mmbt0ne]

NYP,

Of course they can hardplay each other while they're splitting profits and only having to pay $2 in rake. They can raise/reraise preflop with anything to drive the blinds out, and make $450. That's 225 more hands of "hardplaying" to disguise the collusion.

[J_V]

We aren't going to be able to prove anything. And 99% of collusion accusations are wrong. But you could not implicate me with another player with two hands like this -- and I have probably played over a million hands. That's enought to raise concern.

If you are looking for reasons that two players aren't colluding, you absolutely never find it when its happenening.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had to put money on it I would bet they are not colluding. They hard play each other heads up. And they certainly dont collude at every opportunity. A few of their hands would suggest that they are not working as a team at all. I'll let you decide:

[/ QUOTE ]

if I had to put my money on it id bet they were based on the hands posted in this thread.

-Brad

[Nietzsche]

If they were colluding there would be no showdown. Just looks like semibluffs that went a little too far and both not believing the other. This hand is not even comparable to the first hand.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
If they were colluding there would be no showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

showing down when they have *sorta* legit hands seems like a pretty good way to hide the fact taht they are colluding, no?