Black market schools

[natedogg]

I thought I'd add this nice tidbit, taken from a book I recently read: In 1821, *long* before public schools were created, 93% of all NYC children were enrolled in private schools.

So much for the fallacy that without public provision of schooling too many children would go uneducated.

natedogg

[FooSH]

I was going to leave politics alone, the whole "special olympics paradox". But the thread's been bumped and, like the quadriplegic pole-vaulter, I enjoy a challenge.

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Why stop at compulsory education? There's a LOT of things you could do to improve yourself that would make life better for me. Where do you draw the line at forcing people to better themselves for your benefit?

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How much [freedom]should they have??

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This is an interesting question, and probably won't have an easy answer. A 6 year old cannot be held totally responsible for their actions, does that make them entirely the parents responsibility, or even their property? What role does society play? This child interacts with members of it's community and will one day be a part of it. The decision to become a constructive or destructive member is not just up to the child, but the parents and society as a whole. There is obviously a lot of wiggle room here, and the child would have to take more responsibilities for their actions as they got older. Arbitrary ages kind of suck, but they may be the best option unless anyone can think of something else. Once they are beyond this age of responsible action, then the individual is free to continue as they see fit.

Why should you pay for it? Well, you don't, what you are really doing is paying for your own education you had when you were a nipper. Educated people are more likely to have legitimate jobs and can pay back for the schooling they received. Just like the current generation will when they get older. This is a major problem with private schooling, they ask for the money at the wrong time. There are a lot of financial pressures with raising a child (food, clothing, the need to take time off work etc.) Education is such a big cost that could easily be paid for by the child just a few years down the line. This even works in the more direct form of higher education student loans.

But wait! Without the gov. there will be a demand for loans to get children through primary schooling, right? Unfortunately there will be no supply. What rational company would give 10's of thousands of dollars to a 6 year old with no collateral and no way of starting repayments for at least 10 years?



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Robin Hood was an early Libertarian. He took the money improperly seized by an overreaching and overtaxing government and gave it back to the people. No wonder why he is portrayed as a good guy.

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Sound more like a communist to me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], actually, as he only creamed off the top of high earners, you could say he was an early proponent of progressive taxation.

[tomdemaine]

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What rational company would give 10's of thousands of dollars to a 6 year old with no collateral and no way of starting repayments for at least 10 years?

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One's with the foresight to see how incredibly profitable this could be. Good education is one of the best ways of adding value far far above the intitial investment.

[FooSH]

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I apologize, I'm quite new here so am not familiar with the full range of contracts that might be needed. My main reference was to the thread about regulation in health-care. Under the present system anyone can go to someone calling themselves a MD and expect a pretty high standard of care, under AC they will need to research the doctor/provider and be smart enough not to fall for phony accreditation schemes. Almost impossible without a basic level of education, no?

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Sounds like a problem. Seems like someone who could solve that problem voluntarily could make a lot of money. I certainly don't like to spend lots of time researching everything.

Consider education.

What prevents universities from handing out diplomas?

Oh, some actually do that. But how many people honor diplomas from such universities?


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I bet someone could make more money with a fake research site, recieving kickbacks from the companys they are reviewing.

If a person can't even read, how can they tell an honary degree from a real one?

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How did you know you would never need it? How would you know if you had a gift and a passion for [insert subject here] unless you at least tried it? Even if you never use the specific knowledge taught, learning a new subject is still a mental exercise that can improve skills like logic and problem solving.

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And mental exercise cannot be accomodated without a coercively-funded, state-sponsored schooling system?


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Of course they can, that reponse had nothing to do with funding.

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I see no problem using any (non-aggressive) means to get a child to learn to read. I also have no problems in diversity of education, home / state / private / religious etc. are all fine as long as they meet a minimum standard.

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What standard? Who gets to decide the "correct" minumum standard?

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Another interesting question. Teaching as a profession has been around a very long time, there are peer reviewed journals that try to find the best way of teaching children and working out there minimum standards. Regular meetings between these teaching experts, parents, universitys and heads of industry should be able to come up with decent standards, and they will always be under review. Do you think parents should be free to set whatever standards they like? What if their standards are non-existant or even harmfull and abusive?

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According to Child Maltreatment 2005, the most recent report of data from the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System, approximately 899,000 children were found to be victims of child abuse or neglect in Federal fiscal year 2005.

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^^ This is the problem. Without some compulsory education, what happens to these? (genuine question)

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Are you suggesting that complusory education ends child abuse and neglect?

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Not at all, neglect and child abuse are likley to be a problem in any society. What I was trying to say (quite badly) is that, for these children, the fact that education is compulsary is the only reason their getting any. Furthermore, this education is their only means to escape the life they have been cursed with.

[FooSH]

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I thought I'd add this nice tidbit, taken from a book I recently read: In 1821, *long* before public schools were created, 93% of all NYC children were enrolled in private schools.

So much for the fallacy that without public provision of schooling too many children would go uneducated.

natedogg

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So that would be what? Roughly 14 million Americans without basic schooling. I'd call that a problem and I don't even live there.

[elwoodblues]

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I thought I'd add this nice tidbit, taken from a book I recently read: In 1821, *long* before public schools were created, 93% of all NYC children were enrolled in private schools.

So much for the fallacy that without public provision of schooling too many children would go uneducated.

natedogg

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Any idea where these stats came from? I'd like to take a look and see a) if they are true, b) if there are similar numbers in other areas of the country (particularly more rural areas)

[FooSH]

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What rational company would give 10's of thousands of dollars to a 6 year old with no collateral and no way of starting repayments for at least 10 years?

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One's with the foresight to see how incredibly profitable this could be. Good education is one of the best ways of adding value far far above the intitial investment.

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I haven't run any numbers, but I'd estimate that if they gave the loans out at a constant rate it would be at least 20 years maybe over 30 before this showed any profit. Not to mention all the bad debt that would mount up. Also, what would happen if the graduate decided to live in a commune and not earn money, or basically refused to pay back the debt. Would there need to be a system of jack-booted thuggery to reclaim these debts? Finally, would the signature of a 6 year old stand up in any court?

[Copernicus]

There is still no recognition of the two glaring fundamental issues surrounding the alledged benefits of private education. There is no, none, zip-i-de-doo-dah evidence that private education is superior to public education within the same socio-economic group. Everyone bemoans how far we have fallen behind other countries in education. Guess what...we've fallen behind countries that accomplish that with public education.


The other ( and somewhat related issue) is the clear correlation between a complete family unit and stay at home parents with education results. Even if private education were superior, private education and the accompanying free-rider problem would make the stay-at-home parent issue worse, as some parents would have to work to pay the increased cost that otherwise could have stayed at home.

[natedogg]

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I thought I'd add this nice tidbit, taken from a book I recently read: In 1821, *long* before public schools were created, 93% of all NYC children were enrolled in private schools.

So much for the fallacy that without public provision of schooling too many children would go uneducated.

natedogg

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So that would be what? Roughly 14 million Americans without basic schooling. I'd call that a problem and I don't even live there.

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Wow, you weren't kidding about the "special olympics paradox" were you? You fit right in!

I would suggest that the fact you believe there are 200 million americans between the ages of 6 and 18 shows the quality of your analysis so far.

natedogg

[Copernicus]

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I thought I'd add this nice tidbit, taken from a book I recently read: In 1821, *long* before public schools were created, 93% of all NYC children were enrolled in private schools.

So much for the fallacy that without public provision of schooling too many children would go uneducated.

natedogg

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So that would be what? Roughly 14 million Americans without basic schooling. I'd call that a problem and I don't even live there.

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Wow, you weren't kidding about the "special olympics paradox" were you? You fit right in!

I would suggest that the fact you believe there are 200 million americans between the ages of 6 and 18 shows the quality of your analysis so far.

natedogg

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Join him at the olympics. He said 14 million without basic schooling, period. That phrase would include adults who didn't receive an education when they were of school age.