ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[curtains]

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for all the people who wouldn't tell party about the cheaters they knew, would you at least tell the player "I know you are cheating, I want you to stop it, and if you ever do it again I will report you to party"?

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How bout it boys? A reasonable alternative has been laid before you. Or are you too cowardly yet or too fond of having the confidence of crooks and cheats to even do that?

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Ummmm....NO!

I don't issue ultimatums to my friends that involve destroying their lives and their trust for me. I politely state my disagreement and let them decide for themselves what the correct thing is to do.

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LOL

I think it is pretty obvious what the correct thing to do is! the hypothetical friend is just too greedy and weak to face facts, and you are letting him get away with it.

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reponse?

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Um, I think I've responded adequately elswehre but for the record, one more time: I never have, nor will I ever, consider it my place to be the arbiter of morals nor the police chief of online poker players. I'll take responsibility for not recognizing earlier how blatantly unethical it is, but beyond that my conscience is clear.

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I will accept it Shane as long as you promise to tell me if a trusted friend of yours reveals their plans to kill me.

[whiskeytown]

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All: As I've said before, I think it is very naive to think that ZJ, who was willing to break the rules when that made him money, did not take advantage of the really profitable situations that resulted from his breaking of those rules.

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This wisdom is actually spoken about in the Bible - LOL.

Luke 16:10 - The one who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and the one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.

truer words never spoken.

RB

[curtains]

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I think we'd all like it if you post more.

Also, pretty much everything you said was spot in all respects, except that I think that extra accounts in mtts is profitable. Anyone with a good roi doesn't hurt it by entering more tourneys, and I would imagine for skilled players those massive field events are by far the most +EV.

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I agree that its profitable but not by very much.

[Jbrochu]

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lol yeah who is this ackbleh guy anyway. Way to take one sentence out of his post and ignore all the rest. Most serious poker players know who ackbleh is.

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My point had nothing to do with how talented a poker player he might be.

My point was he has 9 posts and makes a blanket statement about the "hundreds" coming out of the woodwork due to jealousy.

I didn't realize only high stakes players had a voice that mattered here. I guess it's similar to the high stakes players being privy to who's cheating while us "less serious" players are left in the dark.

[curtains]

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lol yeah who is this ackbleh guy anyway. Way to take one sentence out of his post and ignore all the rest. Most serious poker players know who ackbleh is.

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My point had nothing to do with how talented a poker player he might be.

My point was he has 9 posts and makes a blanket statement about the "hundreds" coming out of the woodwork due to jealousy.

I didn't realize only high stakes players had a voice that mattered here. I guess it's similar to the high stakes players being privy to who's cheating while us "less serious" players are left in the dark.

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Yea I actually have a list of cheaters, I'll sell it for $100.

Anyway people's post count isn't really relevant in this discussion. Ackbleh makes an attempt at a well thought out post looking at everything from an almost completely objective standpoint, I find it petty that you would pinpoint that one sentence.

[mikechops]

Man this thread has more posts than Shana Hiatt's playboy pics. That is kind of cool.

[ScottieK]

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Man this thread has more posts than Shana Hiatt's playboy pics. That is kind of cool.

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This has to be a 2+2 record for most posts / views in a day.

This is better than Myspace in OOT.

ScottieK

[DVaut1]

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This is stunning.

Shane, I feel you here. I am neither surprised nor disappointed that people are "going after" multi accounters. It is something that needs to be done to clean up this community, particularly at a time when it seems our livelihood/recreation/whatever may be in jeopardy.

It's equally stunning to me that people are up in arms at Shane for not ratting, snitching, informing the authorities - whatever verb you're keen on using. Shane was told something in confidence and was trusted to keep it in confidence. So what you're doing here is throwing stones at Shane for keeping his word. That's ludicrous.

A man is as good as his word.

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I feel for shane and curtains too, because I would probably behave just like they did, and not sound the alarm. I think I would be wrong not to do it, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't rat anyone out.

Regardless, at some point:

"Shane was told something in confidence and was trusted to keep it in confidence."

This is a standard that is almost untenable. Imagine someone told you "in confidence" they were going to blow up a building tomorrow, with lots of people inside. It would be morally reprehensible if you kept such a thing a secret. I assume we can all agree on this. "Keeping a secret", "upholding your word", etc. can never be at the top of an ethical heirarchy.

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Well, yeah, ok, but can we not agree that in a grand sense mutli tabling MTTs < a man's word < national safety? At least those of us who don't have George Bush as our avatar?

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Yeah, I'm not trying to compare multi-accounting MTTs to blowing up a building with people inside. Obviously they're not equivalent and I hope no one thought I was implying that.

But I think two things are going on here. One is this: alot of people are showing up to say "dude, you can't snitch on someone, that's breaking rule #1. your word is gold", or something similar.

That might be rule #1 of some kind of macho-man chest-thumping contest, but it's patently and demonstrably false. There are times when it's entirely appropriate to rat someone out, or to reveal a secret. So let's put aside the "I don't snitch on no one for nothin!" argument for the moment because it's pretty silly. It may be an empirical reality that you don't ever snitch on people, but given the right circumstances, that's absolutely nothing to be proud of and is totally repugnant, and worthy of blame and condemnation, depending on the secret you keep or the person you refuse to snitch on. I'm not claiming this situation regarding ZJ, JJ, and multi-accounting are those circumstances. I think it's a highly complicated situation. But I refuse to accept "I don't snitch" as a reasonable answer for not turning-in/outing cheaters, though -- well, it's clearly an answer, but it's certainly not an ethical one.

The other thing that's happening is that some (like Shaniac) admit that there reason for not turning someone in is essentially selfish -- that is, it disrupts their social life. Which is fair, because I happen to agree with him that it's not reasonable to expect people to rat out their friends, and I would probably not rat out my friends/family. But again, such justifications are purely selfish and are essentially unethical.

So all I'm claiming is that if you knew of the cheaters, and failed to "sound the alarm", or out the cheaters, etc., then you're being unethical for the reasons I've laid out in this thread. Is it completely understandable? Yes. Is it equivalent to the actual cheating that ZJ and JJ did? Of course not. But it's unethical nonetheless, no matter how understandable, or if we would behave the same way (for our own selfish wish to maintain homeostasis in our social life).

[sommes]

but in that one sentence he fails to sell the rest of his post. I know I had a hard time buyin the rest was objective after that sentence. Cheating hurts everyone not just the well know players and people should be mad. I know I am, I have personally encourage other people to play online but will never again. Word of mouth is the best sales tool. Online poker has lost some of that now. Or maybe I am just naive.

Dan

[nolanfan34]

Regarding whether Justin ever chip dumped to himself....

I'm not really familiar with PokerTracker and those other programs, but isn't it possible for you guys who have tons of hands from the big tourneys to do some sort of search on the 6 account names, and see if you can find times two of them might have been on one of your tables? I'd bet for sure you'd find some interesting hands out of that, in hindsight.

Maybe this isn't possible to find, but it would be interesting.