JTs settle a disagreement with DeathDonkey

[La Brujita]

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I like a call here.

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As do I, and I learned this from you back in August and again in one of your recent magazine articles.

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Can you point me to this article? I didn't know stox was writing articles, I would love to read them.

[Wynton]

I know how to settle this:

I say that we in the "raise" camp let our best man fight the best man in the "call" camp, and the losers have to adopt the winners' strategy without question thereafter.

[jason_t]

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I like a call here.

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As do I, and I learned this from you back in August and again in one of your recent magazine articles.

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Can you point me to this article? I didn't know stox was writing articles, I would love to read them.

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Here's the hand where stoxtrader first got me thinking about this issue and here is the magazine article.

That hand is from September when I had only been playing SH for about two--three weeks. I stopped playing SH in October and just picked it back up a couple of weeks ago and seem to be moving towards that being my main pursuit. That was a good thread and nice to revisit.

stoxtrader has wrote some fantastic articles for the magazine. Find his one regarding checking behind on the turn if you can.

Great debate.

One thing for sure...we won't be able to spot a 2+2er by how he plays this....lol

On the serious side, and regardless of which side posters are taking, how significant is it to be on the wrong side of this raise/call decision?

FWIW, I have raised in this spot, without giving a call much consideration.

[Joe Tall]

Raise preflop.

[Victor]

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On the serious side, and regardless of which side posters are taking, how significant is it to be on the wrong side of this raise/call decision?


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both are +ev. fwiw i think calling is more +ev. others seem to disagree.

[poker1O1]

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Can you point me to this article? I didn't know stox was writing articles, I would love to read them.

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Here's the hand where stoxtrader first got me thinking about this issue and here is the magazinearticle.


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Assuming you have nine clean outs, if your opponent folds ten percent of the time, raising is more profitable than calling. This was mentioned in that article, can someone explain the math behind the 10% to me? I'm good at math, so dont feel like u gotta go easy on me.

[Surf]

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Can you point me to this article? I didn't know stox was writing articles, I would love to read them.

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Here's the hand where stoxtrader first got me thinking about this issue and here is the magazinearticle.


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Assuming you have nine clean outs, if your opponent folds ten percent of the time, raising is more profitable than calling. This was mentioned in that article, can someone explain the math behind the 10% to me? I'm good at math, so dont feel like u gotta go easy on me.

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if your opponent folds 10% of the time in, say, a 7BB pot you win 7BBs * .10 or .7 BBs / hand on avg.

If you only have 30% equity on your raise then you put in 1BB extra (you were calling anyway) and of that 1BB you win the pot 30% of the time so you lose .7 of a BB for your raise. If your opponent folds 10% of the time in a 7BB pot you are exactly breakeven (not counting a river bet).

Surf

[Our House]

I know this has likely been said, but the biggest disagreement between posters lies in the assumptions of our opponents' play. Strictly from an equity POV, raising is the better play. What our opponents do after our raise (now, and on later streets) can really give our equity some twists and turns. Because the table is full of unknowns, people's general assumptions will vary greatly enough for the disagreement seen in this thread.

It's good to assume SB is TAGgish and has a good hand, while limpers are LPPish and could have anything. I'm pretty sure most of us agree on that.

If SB is indeed a solid TAG and limpers are passive, but not really loose, I like a call as well. However, under any other conditions, I like a raise.

[stigmata]

I think a flop raise is good if UTG/MP play badly (and will call 2 back, and likely pay off if you hit), but a flop-call is better if they are likely to fold if it's 2 back to them.