WOW, PETA people really are crazy!

[Peter666]

<font color="blue">"Do you honestly think the howling, yelping, and crying an animal does after receiving an injury is not PROOF that the animal is in pain?!! Are you using your brain at all in this conversation? Seriously, this is about as heated as I've ever gotten towards asinine statements on this forum and there have been plenty of them." </font>

Pain yes, suffering no. I've already stated that the degrees of suffering is a subjective experience, only known through human testimony. A hungry baby screaming for milk can sound much louder than an adult torture victim, yet I doubt they are feeling the same amount of suffering. The baby may not be suffering at all to be screaming. Why can't you appeal to science in this matter?

<font color="blue">You never provide your rationale for why it's a HUGE difference? </font>

It's obvious. I know what I am suffering, I don't know what others are suffering.

<font color="blue">"The basis for my moral philosophy is that all animals are living beings and share this planet. Nature can be cruel and animals must kill one another out of necessity. This includes humans. But only an ignoramous takes the philosophical stance "I torture and kill because I don't care about another animal's suffering!" </font>

Ooh, ignoramuses. So what? What are the consequences of your moral philosophy? You have not provided a reason to act as you say I should. I can argue that my pleasure becomes my necessity because without fulfilling it I suffer. If I derive pleasure from stepping on FIDO's tail, why shouldn't I?

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">"Do you honestly think the howling, yelping, and crying an animal does after receiving an injury is not PROOF that the animal is in pain?!! Are you using your brain at all in this conversation? Seriously, this is about as heated as I've ever gotten towards asinine statements on this forum and there have been plenty of them." </font>

Pain yes, suffering no.

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Language is fun when you get to make up new definitions for words as you go!

Suffering, n., to endure death, pain, or distress (Merriam-Webster)

[Peter666]

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<font color="blue">(And once again I find it ironic and sad that one of the most outspoken Christians on this board publicly states that he doesn't give a crap about the suffering of other creatures and clearly states that he values personal pleasure as the basis of his moral values.) </font>

I'm being serious... Is it even possible for an atheist to hold such views towards animals? Clearly the positions of people like Peter666 have nothing to do with logical thinking. It's simply the position that humans are "special" above all other creatures on the planet. Something about how God gave us the earth, plants, and animals, to do with what we please. In other words, it is impossible to wrong an animal. Everything on this planet is a gift from God and not only do we matter the "most", but an animal's suffering isn't even worth our simplest pleasure.

I find it very telling that had I not even known that Peter666's was a believer in God, it would have become very clear he was, after reading his views on animal suffering and abuse. Ironic how the good righteous believers in a moral God, have the coldest hearts in the face of another animal's suffering.

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Hah, screw the believing in God. I am exercising my will to power, and if this includes making animals suffer, I am waiting for a legitimate argument why I should not.

A Christian knows they are subject to an objective force that will judge and punish or reward their actions. There's a reason. Atheists have offered me nothing so far. It appears they have developed an unhealthy emotional attachment to animals that is incapable of justifying itself.

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">"Do you honestly think the howling, yelping, and crying an animal does after receiving an injury is not PROOF that the animal is in pain?!! Are you using your brain at all in this conversation? Seriously, this is about as heated as I've ever gotten towards asinine statements on this forum and there have been plenty of them." </font>

Pain yes, suffering no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Language is fun when you get to make up new definitions for words as you go!

Suffering, n., to endure death, pain, or distress (Merriam-Webster)

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I've already made the distinction earlier. Try to keep on topic and answer the relevant questions.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">"Do you honestly think the howling, yelping, and crying an animal does after receiving an injury is not PROOF that the animal is in pain?!! Are you using your brain at all in this conversation? Seriously, this is about as heated as I've ever gotten towards asinine statements on this forum and there have been plenty of them." </font>

Pain yes, suffering no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Language is fun when you get to make up new definitions for words as you go!

Suffering, n., to endure death, pain, or distress (Merriam-Webster)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already made the distinction earlier. Try to keep on topic and answer the relevant questions.

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Animals feel pain and animals suffer, that's all this side tangent was about. But it was a diversion of yours anyway. The real issue is simply that you value even the most trivial human pleasure over intense pain of animals, and that you think this is somehow objective rather than just your own subjective values. Nobody states you can't hold this belief. But just because you do hold this belief does not imply that everyone else must also, or that somehow these values of yours are objectively "right" and others are "wrong" because they value minimizing suffering of other creatures. And since your values are merely your own subjective values, others can have differing values and work towards trying to convince others to share those values. So what's your real problem here?

[GoRedBirds]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">(And once again I find it ironic and sad that one of the most outspoken Christians on this board publicly states that he doesn't give a crap about the suffering of other creatures and clearly states that he values personal pleasure as the basis of his moral values.) </font>

I'm being serious... Is it even possible for an atheist to hold such views towards animals? . . .

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I don't think this view necessarily arises from a belief in God. There are plenty of people who have never had a spiritual thought who take pleasure in stepping on dogs' tails (for the very reason that they feel entitled to it as a "higher" species, even). I think going out of your way to harm animals has more to do with a person's ability to empathize in general than his religious beliefs.

[Kaj]

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I am exercising my will to power, and if this includes making animals suffer, I am waiting for a legitimate argument why I should not.

A Christian knows they are subject to an objective force that will judge and punish or reward their actions. There's a reason. Atheists have offered me nothing so far. It appears they have developed an unhealthy emotional attachment to animals that is incapable of justifying itself.

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If I value the minimizing of suffering of animals where practical, how is this an "unhealthy emotional attachment"?

And so far, the only justification you've given for your own preferences is that YOU prefer them. But you deny others the ability to form their own values. My argument against torturing animals is that I don't like it or support it where it is unnecessary. Your argument for torturing animals that you do like it or support it even if unnecessary. You haven't given any legitimate reason why your views carry more weight than mine -- all you've done is try to veil your personal preferences.

[Peter666]

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I am exercising my will to power, and if this includes making animals suffer, I am waiting for a legitimate argument why I should not.

A Christian knows they are subject to an objective force that will judge and punish or reward their actions. There's a reason. Atheists have offered me nothing so far. It appears they have developed an unhealthy emotional attachment to animals that is incapable of justifying itself.

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If I value the minimizing of suffering of animals where practical, how is this an "unhealthy emotional attachment"?

And so far, the only justification you've given for your own preferences is that YOU prefer them. But you deny others the ability to form their own values. My argument against torturing animals is that I don't like it or support it where it is unnecessary. Your argument for torturing animals that you do like it or support it even if unnecessary. You haven't given any legitimate reason why your views carry more weight than mine -- all you've done is try to veil your personal preferences.

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I agree with you completely except for this part, "But you deny others the ability to form their own values." I haven't done that at all. You can form whatever opinion you like regarding animals. But why should you be telling me not to hurt animals, when I derive pleasure from it, and it doesn't stop you from practicing your own beliefs?

[Kaj]

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But why should you be telling me not to hurt animals, when I derive pleasure from it, and it doesn't stop you from practicing your own beliefs?

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If I value minimizing animal suffering, it's only reasonable I'd try to ask others to care more about their welfare. Just because we have different views (and we both acknowledge that our views are different) does not mean that I (or PETA) can't try to express our views and hope to change others' views.

Incidentally, your statement is funny coming from the guy who wrote...

On gays as adopted parents
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"Should gay/lesbian couples should be allowed to adopt children? Why or why not?"

No, because gays and lesbians are sexually perverted. Sexual perversity is not conducive to good parenting. Seems rather obvious.

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and on prohibiting homosexuals in public...

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Because I apply principles that are objectively true and universal for all human beings

This authority comes from the Creator of those principles, or from whoever has the most guns, which is probably me.

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Seems you have no problems imposing YOUR beliefs on others, even at the point of a gun. (But not like any of us thought you applied your arguments consistently, so don't sweat it.)

[Peter666]

I haven't really expressed my personal views on how to treat animals, which, if expressed, I would gladly impose if given the opportunity. I just like to watch liberals refute their own beliefs.