Early UFC 74/75 Lines

[Thremp]

slick,

Standard response I expect from you. Funny how I ask for facts and your provide a wikipedia quote pasted all over the internet.

I read that drivel you posted earlier. So someone taking this:http://www.1stallnutrition.com/nandrosol.html should be allowed while it is essentially the exact same thing as http://www.silownia.net/img/deca_durabolin.jpg

Please back up your claim. Where is the study and where are the peer reviews? Or you can continue to attack me and say things like, "LOL. I'm a wikipedia expert. I can't provide the studies cause they don't exist. Or because the 'hard cardio' that our wikipedia friend so expertly describes isn't what Skerk was doing and it'll blast holes in my argument, so instead I'll claim ignorance."

[igetbadbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading some of the responses, I don't know what is more asinine: 1) To pump your body full of steroid precursors that obviously violate the spirit of the law instead of the letter of it to get a leg up on the opposition 2) To argue that pumping yourself full of steroid precursors is a acceptable and standard process.

Aside from the obvious fact that many of the pro-hormones that were made were much stronger than some steroids at moderate dosages. (Talk to a baseball player on a normal dosage of Winny-V about the effects he sees and someone who took the older pro-hormones.)

igetbadbeat,

You're an idiot. I mean that in the truest sense of the word. "Orange juice is a supplement." GTFO. That is food.

Danny,

Yes, I read it. I don't understand why you are anti-testing? I see the reasons are clear for the purity of the sport. Doping already occurs at the Olympic level among almost all athletes. Baseball is rampant with steroid usage. It happens in all sports. MMA doesn't currently have the money involved or there would be fewer positive tests. The reason for tests being structured like they are is due to the fact you can pump yourself full of precursors and get the same effects of juice.

All,

This is getting off topic, but basically Sherk got popped. It sucks. Whoops. Make sure not to juice next time big guy.

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Call me an idiot when you're the one who knows nothing. You talk about hte spirit of the law when you have no idea what the reason for banning of steroids is nor do you understand the chemistry behind them.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
slick,

Standard response I expect from you. Funny how I ask for facts and your provide a wikipedia quote pasted all over the internet.

I read that drivel you posted earlier. So someone taking this:http://www.1stallnutrition.com/nandrosol.html should be allowed while it is essentially the exact same thing as http://www.silownia.net/img/deca_durabolin.jpg

Please back up your claim. Where is the study and where are the peer reviews? Or you can continue to attack me and say things like, "LOL. I'm a wikipedia expert. I can't provide the studies cause they don't exist. Or because the 'hard cardio' that our wikipedia friend so expertly describes isn't what Skerk was doing and it'll blast holes in my argument, so instead I'll claim ignorance."

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted the wikipedia quote because it was short the and excerpts from other papers that I posted earlier were apparently too difficult for you to read. The burden of production is now on you. I've linked to several studies that support my position, while you have produced nothing.

And you're not even being intellectually honest when you're accusing me of referring to study that does not even exist. The same study that the wikipedia quote referred has been cited in several other locations. Copyright law is a bitch.

To boil things down for into simple terms since your reading comprehension seems to be lacking: The studies indicate that it is possible for someone to test positive for nandrolone without ingesting nadrolone or obvious precursors like that stuff you just linked to. Kinda like how someone can test positive for morphine by eating poppy seeds.

[igetbadbeat]

Ok thremp, I finally understand where you are coming from. You think we are defending a sherk who is taking PH's and coming up positive for anabolic roids. That is not what's happening.

Taking tribulus, whey protein, dextrose,GABA, zinc, magnesium, and nettle root can make a person test positive. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. I am not defending someone who takes PH's as you have linked. If you had any idea about the supplement industry you would have understand my OJ as a reference to fructose and Vit C. Instead you want to criticize when all you know is "Steroids are bad" and PH's are legal steroids. Go watch teh HBO special on roids also,

[Thremp]

slick,

Peer reviews exist? Why I'd be stunned to see them.

For the sake of intellectual honesty. Did Sherk "eat the poppy seeds"? I mean that is why we actually read this studies... So we can see the methodology and see if it might be similar in any way or if they are taking 35g of creatine a day in addition to 100 miles a week... Or if any other studies can corroborate this evidence since science is repeatable?

Note: My original comment was unclear about the study not existing. From what I've seen the study doesn't seem to be peer-reviewed and seems to be a one-time study that has little actual basis on science. I can't really accept a single random study with no follow-up research as factual. But yes, I understand there was actually a study done.

igetbadbeat,

I don't understand the chemistry. You are correct. I only was a major in it for a time. I do not have a post-doctoral set of studies in biochemistry which what you'd need to understand this. Aside from the fact that some of the reactions are understood at all. Many of these metabolic processes aren't understood. In fact its largely hit or miss to quantify the exact androgenic/anabolic properties of each of these compounds in the human body. What is your point? Supplement are laced? Sometimes you can take a supplement thats sole purpose is to simulate the effects of a steroid... a pro-steroid if you will... You still seem set on this banned substance idea. What if they made a magic pill that wasn't banned and contained no test... But would magically create it in your body, but only certain people has access to it... Clearly they should be allowed to take it and no one else right? Balance in sports and all. Spirit of the law... No one wants a level playing field.

[igetbadbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
slick,

Peer reviews exist? Why I'd be stunned to see them.

For the sake of intellectual honesty. Did Sherk "eat the poppy seeds"? I mean that is why we actually read this studies... So we can see the methodology and see if it might be similar in any way or if they are taking 35g of creatine a day in addition to 100 miles a week... Or if any other studies can corroborate this evidence since science is repeatable?

Note: My original comment was unclear about the study not existing. From what I've seen the study doesn't seem to be peer-reviewed and seems to be a one-time study that has little actual basis on science. I can't really accept a single random study with no follow-up research as factual. But yes, I understand there was actually a study done.

igetbadbeat,

I don't understand the chemistry. You are correct. I only was a major in it for a time. I do not have a post-doctoral set of studies in biochemistry which what you'd need to understand this. Aside from the fact that some of the reactions are understood at all. Many of these metabolic processes aren't understood. In fact its largely hit or miss to quantify the exact androgenic/anabolic properties of each of these compounds in the human body. What is your point? Supplement are laced? Sometimes you can take a supplement thats sole purpose is to simulate the effects of a steroid... a pro-steroid if you will... You still seem set on this banned substance idea. What if they made a magic pill that wasn't banned and contained no test... But would magically create it in your body, but only certain people has access to it... Clearly they should be allowed to take it and no one else right? Balance in sports and all. Spirit of the law... No one wants a level playing field.

[/ QUOTE ]

no man, this response is the whole point why I said OJ is a supplement...please look up the supplements I listed and see how natural they are and then you will understand why its scary that you can test positive. You're still set in beleiving that all these things that make you test positive may be legal but are still mimicking steroids. If that were the case then we should ban all compound heavy lifts because they also increase your testosterone...a line has to be drawn, but the question is where? I don't think PH's should be legal in sports nor should roids. I also think more likely than not Sherk took deca and probably didn't account for his elevated metabolite levels from excercise, supplements, and genetics. But there is still a chance that he's actually innocent.

[slickpoppa]

Why should the burden of proof be on Sherk to produce peer reviewed studies in his favor? Nandrolone is a naturally occurring substance, and the burden should be on the government agency depriving someone of their livelihood for a year to show that levels above 6ng/mL cannot be achieved through natural means, especially in light of the many studies which have called that threshold into question. Let's see the peer reviewed studies showing that 6ng/mL is the natural limit.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should the burden of proof be on Sherk to produce peer reviewed studies in his favor? Nandrolone is a naturally occurring substance, and the burden should be on the government agency depriving someone of their livelihood for a year to show that levels above 6ng/mL cannot be achieved through natural means, especially in light of the many studies which have called that threshold into question. Let's see the peer reviewed studies showing that 6ng/mL is the natural limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a much better angle than the one you originally took.

My point on the creatine is that it is likely [censored] and the study is likely unrealistic.

[Thremp]

igetbadbeat,

Maybe you should read some Dan Duchaine instead of watching HBO for stuff on steroids. Out of the list above I see 2 foods, 2 minerals, 2 things I don't know of, and a widely known test booster. I wonder which of those could be most likely to increase test levels. (Though the minerals are in ZMA which is suppose to increase test levels to a degree. Conflicting research from what I've seen. I solely take it for sleep but whatev). I do think that random positives do come up but in a sport with a history of indiscriminate steroid use I think it'd be much more likely that he effed up his doses of juice than just randomly had a strange side effect that is debatable in occurence.

[igetbadbeat]

[ QUOTE ]
igetbadbeat,

Maybe you should read some Dan Duchaine instead of watching HBO for stuff on steroids. Out of the list above I see 2 foods, 2 minerals, 2 things I don't know of, and a widely known test booster. I wonder which of those could be most likely to increase test levels. (Though the minerals are in ZMA which is suppose to increase test levels to a degree. Conflicting research from what I've seen. I solely take it for sleep but whatev). I do think that random positives do come up but in a sport with a history of indiscriminate steroid use I think it'd be much more likely that he effed up his doses of juice than just randomly had a strange side effect that is debatable in occurence.

[/ QUOTE ]

So now you wnat to argue with me over the definition of a supplement? I'm very familiar with duccaine and I'm not a fan of clenbuterol or DNP and for my own body would certainly use testosterone and other drugs well before DNP.

My point was simply Sherk may not be guilty, that's all. I've stated before that odds are he is, but it's not guaranteed. Anyway it's odd for someone like that to come up positive for deca when the halflife of such a substance is so well known. I can't wait to here his appeal and i guess i'm just an optimist hoping to see sherk vs BJ.