More guns the way to go? Some thoughs.

[pvn]

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Why would there be more homemade guns in the US if handguns were illegal than there are in other industrialized countries with gun control?

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I haven't made that claim. It's easier right now to import guns than to make them. But if magically all guns manufactuers are shut down (of course, the government will still get guns somehow, but let's not worry about details, right?) then people will start making them. It's all about division of labor, comparative advantage. The laws of economics don't simply disappear because of violent intervention.

[karlwig]

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everybody is talking about the black market. if we ban guns, they would get them anyway, so there's no point. that's like saying we should allow killing, cause it happens anyway.

first guns must be banned. of course you would have to do a lot about the black market too. in norway, i'm sure we have a black market where you can buy guns. but the point is, IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET ONE! a maniac can't just get a gun without an effort. it's impossible. he would have to have contacts and look carefully. this is excactly what i wrote in the original post. of course people would still get guns, and people would still get killed. but that's not the point! the point is to make it as safe as possible.

50 killed is better than 100 killed. 500 killed is better than 5000. i never said that gun banning would stop ALL murders, or make crime go away. But it would lower the gun-related deaths, naturally. And the criminals? I never said there would be less criminals, as someone here accused me of. But a criminal without a gun is better than a criminal with a gun. now i know what you're gonna say "but a criminal can get a gun anyways"! YES, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM! We're not talking single scenarios here. That's what's so frustrating about arguing with you guys. You go, "well, you don't think there would be guns? huh? no criminals with guns? huh? drugs are forbidden, people use them anyways! omg you are wrong"

im sick of this. alcohol is legal in norway. of course people would still drink if it's illegal, but LESS WOULD DO IT!

if guns were forbidden, less criminals would get guns. and that would make a safer society.

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I agree with you in some capacity. We def need to make it harder for people to get guns. Many deaths are caused by spur of the moment anger that results in someone pulling a trigger. If you made it harder to get a gun, most of those involved would not be inclined to make the effort to get a gun. Would there still be people with guns? Yes. But the % would be much lower.

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excactly. we can never make guns go away. we can make them very difficult to get though, which, as you say, would save a lot of lives.

you expressed my point a lot better, thanks. i do need to work on my english [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[mosdef]

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Think of the children! Never mind that more kids die in swimming pools. You bourgeous people just HAD to have your fancy swimming pool! You people are dangerous and scary.

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Your swimming pool is very unlikely to accidentally drown me on my own property while you are using it to defend your property from an intruder.

[bkholdem]

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Well, it would still be safer. Yes, a man with a gun would be unstoppable for sivilians, but then nobody would get hurt trying to stop him either. Criminals with guns have a reason using them if they are trethened by other people with guns. If no one else have guns, they don't have to.

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If 2 guys stroll into your house and notify you they intend to rape your wife and daughter while they take turns holding you at knifepoint are you going to rest easy at night since you were not put in a position to own a gun and have to live with murdering them?

p.s. What does a one way plane ticket cost from the USA to your country? There may be a profit motive to export some criminals to you guys.

[NickMPK]

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News flash: not all criminals in the US have guns.

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You are clearly trying to evade my point. I would claim that a far smaller percentage of criminals in industrialized countries where handgun ownership is illegal own guns than do criminals in America. Are you actually going to dispute this? If you don't dispute this, then why is this?

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What difference does it make? Tie it to a point you're trying to make.


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You are claiming that making guns illegal would not reduce the market for guns among criminals. Yet in countries that have gun control, very few criminals have guns. If the market for guns among criminals is unaffected their legality, why do we see this dichotomy?

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Is it just the fact that people have guns that bothers you? If we had the exact same crime figures, same number of robberies, same number of murders, etc, but with fewer guns, would you be happier?

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I don't know that getting rid of guns would reduce the number of robberies. I am fairly confident it would reduce the number of murders. But I am sure it would reduce the number of accidental firearm deaths. If only these deaths were reduced, while the crime rates were unchanged, I would be happier.

[mosdef]

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If 2 guys stroll into your house and notify you they intend to rape your wife and daughter while they take turns holding you at knifepoint are you going to rest easy at night since you were not put in a position to own a gun and have to live with murdering them?

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Would they be wearing jack-boots?

How come the anti-gun crowd is not allowed to appeal to the "irrational" risk of being accidentally shot by a pro-gun advocate (come on, what are the chances of that) but pro-gun advocates are allowed to defend their need to have a gun based on the risk that their family will be raped if they throw their gun away?

[bkholdem]

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It boils down to a very simple view:

If there were no guns, accidental deaths would be much lower. Violent crimes would be much lower. Guns make it easier to resort to violence when all you have to do is pull a trigger. Why is this so hard to understand?

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Uninvention FTW!

while we're at it:



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That picture is so 70's! Go Here:

http://www.rickey.org/?p=1580

[karlwig]

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Well, it would still be safer. Yes, a man with a gun would be unstoppable for sivilians, but then nobody would get hurt trying to stop him either. Criminals with guns have a reason using them if they are trethened by other people with guns. If no one else have guns, they don't have to.

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If 2 guys stroll into your house and notify you they intend to rape your wife and daughter while they take turns holding you at knifepoint are you going to rest easy at night since you were not put in a position to own a gun and have to live with murdering them?

p.s. What does a one way plane ticket cost from the USA to your country? There may be a profit motive to export some criminals to you guys.

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oh jesus. well, if both the criminals and I had guns, they could just shoot me anyways, right?

You'll always find examples where you could use a gun to defend yourself, of course. it still makes people die, even if you shoot the "bad people". but i was not talking in "good guy, bad guy" terms here. I was talking about saving lives on an overall basis.

a plane ticket would cost like 600 bucks, maybe. you're not allowed to bring your gun, though. you may be right; it's profitable for criminals here with no one using guns. at least we save lives.

[bkholdem]

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Well, it would still be safer. Yes, a man with a gun would be unstoppable for sivilians, but then nobody would get hurt trying to stop him either. Criminals with guns have a reason using them if they are trethened by other people with guns. If no one else have guns, they don't have to.

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If 2 guys stroll into your house and notify you they intend to rape your wife and daughter while they take turns holding you at knifepoint are you going to rest easy at night since you were not put in a position to own a gun and have to live with murdering them?

p.s. What does a one way plane ticket cost from the USA to your country? There may be a profit motive to export some criminals to you guys.

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oh jesus. well, if both the criminals and I had guns, they could just shoot me anyways, right?

You'll always find examples where you could use a gun to defend yourself, of course. it still makes people die, even if you shoot the "bad people". but i was not talking in "good guy, bad guy" terms here. I was talking about saving lives on an overall basis.

a plane ticket would cost like 600 bucks, maybe. you're not allowed to bring your gun, though. you may be right; it's profitable for criminals here with no one using guns. at least we save lives.

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Good point about guns and planes. Can you tell me which land routes to your country are the least patrolled? What about ocean ports?

[LBK]

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If 2 guys stroll into your house and notify you they intend to rape your wife and daughter while they take turns holding you at knifepoint are you going to rest easy at night since you were not put in a position to own a gun and have to live with murdering them?

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Would they be wearing jack-boots?

How come the anti-gun crowd is not allowed to appeal to the "irrational" risk of being accidentally shot by a pro-gun advocate (come on, what are the chances of that) but pro-gun advocates are allowed to defend their need to have a gun based on the risk that their family will be raped if they throw their gun away?

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If it wasn't a rape by a stranger then surely a member of Al-Quaeda. Duh. We need guns..those terrorist will rape our women!