A hand

[Clarkmeister]

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HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

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I think it's giving up WAY too much against a player who will consistently give excessive action. Also, a wierd dynamic sometimes is that the more bets you put in preflop, the more action they are willing to give. In other words, if I just call and then come to life on an 8-high board, it's an action killer. If I 4-bet and it comes 8-high, I'm still likely to get tons of action before he really believes I've got an overpair or can't push me off AK or whatever.

[Westley878]

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HI Clarkmeister,

It looks like you posted this hand becuz you were wondering if there is a better line to take in this spot with TT against this type of opponent.

Heres a quote from TOP, page 272, that may apply here.

11. "Against an opponent who plays too loose on early rounds and too aggressively later on you should play solid cards, but play them meekly. Make this player think he can run over you."

Since the villain seems to fit this decription, If I were to apply this concept, I would just call his 3 bet preflop, and on this board, I would just call down. What do you think of the merits of this strategy against this particular opponent. I personally like this line against this villain.

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I think it's giving up WAY too much against a player who will consistently give excessive action. Also, a wierd dynamic sometimes is that the more bets you put in preflop, the more action they are willing to give. In other words, if I just call and then come to life on an 8-high board, it's an action killer. If I 4-bet and it comes 8-high, I'm still likely to get tons of action before he really believes I've got an overpair or can't push me off AK or whatever.

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Good point, it sounds like capping preflop against this villain is the best play.

[SA125]

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he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable

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Wow. I remember the post where Zee asked you what stage you were in when you got crazy with 55 or something. Seems like something's changed.

Anyway, looks like if you've played together enough, he should have TP beat. Unless he's betting because it's the only way he wins. Which you think is the case.

Alternative lines are either just passively calling down or folding to the river donk after raising the turn. I prefer the raise. Either I think is better than paying off that river.

[Clarkmeister]

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he likely thinks I'm somewhat tight/predictable

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Wow. I remember the post where Zee asked you what stage you were in when you got crazy with 55 or something. Seems like something's changed.

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Well, I said tight/predictable *relative to himself*. There were people at that table who think I'm a LAGtard too.

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Unless he's betting because it's the only way he wins. Which you think is the case.


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I called because his hand didn't feel how he'd play an ace, but it looked for all the world like an ace. So what I'm saying is I wasn't thinking anything other than I just had to see his hand because while I felt I was beat, I needed the information because my instinct didn't jive with my read. Which may be a pretty bad reason to call, or a good one, I'm not sure.

[mike l.]

i dont really see the point in raising the turn. he's not likely to fold anything on the turn, and although making him pay to draw is good youre just beat by so many hands. the pause means weakness sometimes, but sometimes it also means theyre going to show you a weak A or QQ or something terribly irritating.

use your position to save bets and decide right there on the turn youre putting in exactly two more bets (if you dont spike), none more, none less.

[PokerBob]

seems fine. i am assuming you were dumping to a turn 3bet?

[Eeyore]

he obviously bet the turn to avoid giving a free card, which means he has a made hand. if you raise the turn he might confuse him. are you semi-bluffing, do you have an ace??, i dont know. in any event he will now not bet the river which you were hoping he would do.

[goofball]

Just a random observation from live play:

I've noticed a fair amount of calling the turn raise and donking the river from a certain type of player against a certain type as a kind of value bluff. Specifically against rocking players from LAGish players who play/read hands well but give up way too much with their looseness and aggression.

Anyway, this really looks like a perfect kind of spot for this to happen (although it'd be a little better if the river was a bit scarier). Against the kind of player you're describing I'd frequently play this hand the exact same way. It really seems like the best way to just let them outplay themselves.

[Clarkmeister]

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he obviously bet the turn to avoid giving a free card, which means he has a made hand

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But with that board and that preflop action, I don't see how any made hand is really worried about free cards.

[SinCityGuy]

I used to be a firm believer in the concept of stopping bluffs, which is what you did with your turn raise. However, there are plenty of donks at all limits these days who will fire again on a busted draw after your great show of strength on the turn. Against this type of player, I would call down on the river, although it's close. Against any other type of player, this is a clear fold.