Official Blather about ZeeJustin Till The End of Time Thread

[shemp]

I haven't read all of the ZJ material, but the evocations of an "angry mob" amuse me. Adverting to the sins of some unnamed crowd is unconvincing.

Those of you who refer to and heroically oppose the angry mob: Who is in the Angry Mob? Please list the posters. I'd be surprised if the list got any longer than a handful of people who were either attempting to be funny or are clearly monkeys and not worth responding to. Some people do appear to feel actual anger towards ZJ or think that his punishment was light and the mockery of him is somehow fitting, but what have such people done or said to indicate that they haven't arrived at their opinion on their own and that they express it as their own? -- it doesn't make them mob sheep or mob leaders. Instead we may simply be witnessing that they have a different view or sense of humour from you, and that you don't like that there are more of them than you -- so you call them a mob.

As far as being crucified, disemboweled, etc. Again, empty rhetoric. Yes, ZJ is the target of ridicule -- some of it clever and amusing. I suspect most of the ridiculers to actually enjoy the opportunity to display their cleverness as opposed to having genuine ill will towards ZJ. I know I've enjoyed some of their efforts. This insensitivity to the object of ridicule may speak negatively in some cases of the ridiculer but it is fairly fundamental to humor, and it is fairly fundamental to many internet fora. Personally I don't see much of it as a cruel or overly harsh response under the circumstances.

By all means, please continue the heroic fight for civility on the internet and charity in this instance -- I say this not because I don't value such things, but because for some odd reason the people propounding them so often entertain.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
Indy, you sound like a typical bleeding heart wimp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I actually AM a bleeding heart wimp. In the last 4 US presidential elections, I've voted Dem twice and for pinko commie third party candidates twice. This also establishes my "age" credentials. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

ZJ didn't win money playing poker, because he wasn't playing poker. He was playing a game similar to poker that was not available to those of us who aren't cheats. This is not a borderline area. It is very straightforward. The correct amount of money to take from him is every single dollar he has ever made at every single site where he can be shown to have used more than one account at the same time in a tournament. Not just the amount that he has there now. Every dollar he has made there ever. Ever. And he should be permanently banned from playing at these sites. (I'd extend this ban to all other sites and to B&M casinos as well, but of course this isn't going to happen either.) Cheating at poker is a crime that needs to be over-punished if it is the case that it is under-detected or particularly harmful to society (in this case the society of poker players). It is both. In the real world, perjury is a crime that needs to be over-punished because it is particularly harmful to the judicial process (and difficult to convict someone for).

[Indiana]

The masses have spoken. This was a very very sad week for a game that we all love a great deal. I feel for ZJ even though he messed up. However, he apparently isn't going to come forward and its 99% here that he deserves to be banned. Personally I have learned a great deal from all of this and I am ready to put it all to rest.

Indy

[shemp]

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I don't know what it means for this to be a sad thing for poker. Poker doesn't get sad (okay, that part is me trying to be obtuse). A cheater was caught and punished and now there is a debate about cheating and the punishment. The industry is evolving and is experiencing some associated pains -- I don't see how this can be said to be a negative moment in the history of poker.

[aheravi]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't anybody hear what I'm saying? Is there anybody in here over 21 yrs of age who can impart some maturity on this situation?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

35. Screw him.

[aheravi]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my proposal:

1. Don't take his $. You cannot prove that he cheated for it.

2. Remove all accounts except for the ZeeJustin main account.

3. Give him a 3 month suspension from the sites.

4. Warn him that if he ever does any multiaccounting like this ever again the punishment will be severe (like it is now).

5. ?? You tell me?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

This idea and this thread is gay. And I'm only prolonging it.

[econophile]

i was seated next to playername "ZeeJustins7thAccount" on party today

[MyTurn2Raise]

hahaha...best screenname ever

[Oski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always thought you were fairly level-headed in the SNG forum,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a "level-headed" person all the time. I do phuck up and make mistakes. That does not make me wrong in all my poker arguments, it doesn't make me a criminal, and it doesn't define me. I phuck up all the time and I make mistakes. So do you guys, obviously. Zee screwed up and deserves to be punished. I'm just concerned that we are ruining the guys dreams and aspirations and frankly I'd like to play against him to better my game. I think that he could end up being really really good at poker, but not if we ban him from all internet sites and public cardrooms like many are suggesting.

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

Indiana: I think you are a little too emotionallly invested in this argument. I don't undertstand this outpouring of sympathy.

Of course, like most rational adults, I am for allowing people to pursue "dreams and aspirations." However, in most professions, there are lines you simply cannot cross without serously jeopardizing your eligibility to continue in that profession.

For example, as an attorney, I could be sanctioned and disbarred for a number of reasons. Of course, some transgressions are worse than others, but there are some lines, that if crossed, will be grounds for disbarment.

I would think that planning and executing a system for cheating in poker would be grounds for termination. Of course, there is no such thing as a poker license. Therefore, each poker institution must decide how to handle the situation. Indeed, the sites where ZJ cheated has banned him. That seems reasonable enough.

Other sites are also free to make a choice as to whether they would welcome a known cheater onto their site. First of all, as a pure business decision, I think it would be quite reasonable for an interet site to ban a known cheater. It would be bad publicity to allow a known cheater when your product demands integrity. Second of all, as a business, an internet poker site should not have to worry about the welfare of a known poker cheat. Who cares if banning him from "X" site is going to severly crimp his cash flow and make him feel depressed? It is simply not their responsibility.

Again, as pointed out ad naseum, this is not a situation where ZJ pulled an angle shot, or was trying to trick the pit boss into giving him better comps, etc. He was cheating in a manner which nobody had to read and interpret a site's T&C to see if such actions are not allowed.

ZJ's actions would be considered cheating at poker, period.

Where to go from here? Its really none of our business. I don't think it is rational behavior to beg online casinos to give a cheater (especially of this magnitude) another chance. Do I feel sorry for the kid? Yeah, I suppose so. But, then again, (as per your initial request) I look back on my past, and I don't see this type of stuff. It's not like "Oh, I must be a lucky guy and something like this never HAPPENED TO ME." I made choices based on my morals and ethics and managed to avoid trouble.

We all made mistakes, and we all had bad stuff happen to us. Nevertheless, some things can be pawned off as youthful transgressions, but this one can't. Nobody forced ZJ to become a poker pro. In fact, he brought the issue to these forums as a matter of debate. Instead of cointinuing college, he decided to go pro. Well, as a pro, he broke the number one rule in poker, and I guess he will have to pay his dues.

Maybe the real lesson is that if you wish to avail yourself of the "youthful transgression" excuse, don't force yourself into places where you will be expected to act as a responsible adult. ZJ made that choice, we don't have to apologize for him.

I am sure ZJ will have many opportunities to play poker, especially in live casinos. If people wish to remember him as a poker cheat, well, I supposed that would be justified.

[ilovebadbeats]

People get caught cheating playing poker (live and online) all the time - and they are punished
and banned and their money that they won is taken from them - AND noone (which I think is so bizarre in this case) comes out to DEFEND the actions
of the cheater! And this was flagrant and severe OBVIOUS cheating!

I think you should have you funds confiscated and be banned JUST for defending the actions
of a cheater!!! (unless you have proof to exonerate the cheater or something...)

The only reason anyone cares about Zee so much is that he "was" a phenomenal player and
and had a nice blog page in which he wrote great articles and gave out free poker tips, etc.
He "was"
someone to be looked up to and a bonafide "celebrity" in the online poker world.

It's akin to a famous celebrity or someone you look up to committing a crime - you are in shock when that happens!

But the law is the law. Being uber-talented and semi-famous DOESN'T entitle you to
break the law/cheat. And if you say that he should be allowed to keep all of his
funds and only get a "3 month" suspension then you are - flat out - an idiot (i.e., someone with a low IQ).

If I was caught cheating in a flagrant and severe and obvious manner, I would at least have the
decency to accept my punishment like a man and apologize to my fellow players and NOT, as Zee DID, accuse all of my fellow players of
being cheats themselves and equate "opening a second account in order to get rakeback"
with
obvious cheating at the tables!!! Never in a million (scratch that -)
Never in a "Skillion" years would I EVER consider or believe that it was only "minorly bending the rules"
to enter myself multiple times into the same f**king tournament!!!
(let alone in the biggest cash payout tournaments anywhere online!!!)

How can someone with such good reasoning at the tables and such a great poker acumen and understanding of the game NOT have had a clue how much of a HUGE violation he was committing!
Like another said (based on Zee's "My Statement" post), Zee must live in "fantasy land."

That post makes me feel like I have to puke.

I can't (and still have a hard time believing - up to this day, up to this minute!) that the same "nice/great guy" who has the blog page
wrote that horrible "My Statement" post. Talk about Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde...

I, for one, believe that the punishment HAS to stand. IN addition, I believe an EXTENSIVE review must be conducted on all of his big accounts going back to when he started playing (to the very inception of each account) to determine how much of his winnings were a result of his cheating activity.
This amount of money should then be forced to be sent by Zee back to the poker sites and then this money should
be returned to individuals harmed by his actions/cheating (i.e., everone should be bumped up a spot in the money and then paid with
Zee's stolen money).
Now, you might say, how is Party or Stars going to get Justin to send them the money (if, in fact, they figure the money owed back to them
is greater than (as I suspect) to what they've already confiscated...
Legally (in US courts) they might not be able to get him to send in the $$$...
But Party and Stars both have more money than God and can pretty much hire a "hit man" to pay Justin a visit and "encourage" him to return the stolen monies (not saying that they would do this, but they could).

I would be scared sh*tless and uber-apologetic if I were Zee! (hint, hint! Stop actin like an
a*s Zee! The sooner you stop the better!)

I feel bad for Justin too, but NOT punishing him would be hurting him more than
punishing him would. If you didn't punish him, he would think what he did was OK, and then continue to
cheat (later in life, perhaps) and then act like an a*s after he got caught. Maybe this incident will cause him to grow up a little/be a "wake-up call" for him.
He's lucky he didn't wind up behind bars for this for some of the best youthful years of his life!!!
Ask yourslef what would happen if Zee were caught cheating a B & M casino out of big money???
I think
you know the answer! Relatively speaking, just being "banned" from a few online poker sites and losing/having confiscated part of what you stole is almost like no punishment at all - really what he got was a "slap on the wrist".

Draining all of his Bank accounts to "Zero" and taking away his ability to chew solid food would be too severe I'd say, but not this!

In Rounders when they got caught cheating the cops, they didn't let the guys have their original buy ins back and politly walk them to the door and say "Please don't come back, fellas." They kicked their a*ses, kocked out a few of their teeth and took every cent they had on them!

All I'm saying is that the "punishment" that you are saying is too harsh is, point of fact, not nearly harsh enough. And you
saying so proves that you are, with no disrespect intended to you, or anyone else sharing the same opinion, an idiot.

I would expect Zee's 10 year old kid brother or 15 year old girl-friend to think that his punishment is not fair.
So, how are you
related to Zee? Or Did he pay you to make this post?

Zee could have won hundreds of thousands of $$$ without cheating at all!
I think it is so sad that he had to try to take "shortcuts" and cheat to gain unfair advantages to get there more quickly.
And in doing so, he cheated his fellow players, not the poker sites!
And he (as evident in his post) didn't give a damn about any of his fellow players! (he even said "If I am a cheater then so are all of you!")
Remember that.

But, like others said, he's probably already back on Stars and Party with all new acccounts and new screennames...and I think this is tragic (that there is really no way to enforce a true "ban" of a player from a poker site...)

I used to read Zee's blog and think to myself how cool he was and how much I wanted to be just like him/be a Professional Poker player and put up my own blog/website!
I can't say that I do any longer...