One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8

[1MoreFish4U]

This is a very interesting discussion in that opinions are so far apart on it.

I think that it is more or les 'junk' that I would have no problem throwing away. If your goal is to try to find a way to win every pot, then of course it can be played - but why?

Part of my preference not to play it stems from the fact that I play on average 4 tables at a time so most of the time the hand would require too much direct concentration.

The thing is though, the hand is "trouble" from start to finish, unless you manage to flop a straight flush or quads, in which case you are unlikely to win a big pot.

In the majority of other situations you are either going to lose money, or scramble to get half of the pot.

Why bother with that?

[hoppscot22]

why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

you have position and a decent hand.

i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked, with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

stop being nits! gambol.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

[/ QUOTE ]Hoppscot - Those are two card Texas hold 'em hands. Texas hold 'em is a game such that you can gamble on your opponent's lack of fit with the board.

But this is Omaha-8 and one of your opponents is much more likely to actually have a fit with the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
you have position...

[/ QUOTE ]Position matters in limit Omaha-8, but not nearly as much as in pot-limit Omaha-8, and not as much as in no-limit Texas hold 'em.

[ QUOTE ]
...and a decent hand.

[/ QUOTE ]KKT9s- is not what I would call a "decent hand." (By s-, I mean the ten suited to the nine. I use s without the minus sign for suited to the highest card in the hand). KKT9s- is what I would call a sub-marginal hand. By "sub-marginal" I mean a tad below marginal. Sometimes I'll play sub-marginal hands, but usually for something more than their own intrinsic value.

[ QUOTE ]
i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

[/ QUOTE ]This is one of them.

[ QUOTE ]
just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked,....

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure what you mean by "equity" as you are using the word here. I don't think a bare ace-deuce is a great Omaha-8 hand, although I'll generally see the flop with it. And I'm probably often going to see the flop, especially from late position along with a lot of limpers, with KKT9s- too, although I surely can see the case for folding it.

But you're comparing four cards (KKT9) to two cards (A2XX). Hardly seems quite a fair comparison. How's about you make it A2T9 and KKT9. Now which of those two hands do you honestly prefer? While A2T9 is not a great hand by any means, it's a head above KKT9 (not quite head and shoulders above).[ QUOTE ]
...with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]How about QQT9? Want to play that one too? How about JJT9? 88T9? 77T9? 66T9? (all with a suited T9) Where do you draw your line?
I don't think any of those hands are very playable. But in a game where everyone is often seeing the flop I might play any of them to alleviate boredom and to appear looser - but certainly not for two bets.
[ QUOTE ]
stop being nits! gambol.

[/ QUOTE ] It's not exactly a matter of being a nit. It's a matter of playing in such a way as to have the odds on your side.

In my considered opinion, the hand needs volume to be playable. If almost everyone ahead of me had limped, I would limp too. If so, I'd be mainly playing the hand for the pair of kings within it. And then on the one time out of eight when the flop had a king, I'd have odds to continue. I'd still need the board to pair, and that's what I'd be drawing for (the board to pair). The suited ten-nine adds value too, but in Omaha-8 suited ten-nine is not great, even when the flop is 8-7-6 (unless you flop a straight flush, but that's too rare to merit serious consideration). In a full loose game, your ten high straight will probably not be the nuts for high on the river (but you'll be stuck in the pot even though you're only playing for the high half of the pot).

I think where you're going wrong is over-valuing KKT9s- as a starting hand. Even when you catch a king on the flop, you're still drawing after the flop, needing the board to pair. And then you're probably paying off on the river even when the board doesn't pair (because the pot may be huge and your opponents will tend to bluff into huge pots).

Gamble? That's what we do. However, we want an edge because the pain of losing is greater than the joy of winning and we thus need to win more often than we lose to have the joy exceed the pain.

Nits? Is playing properly with the odds on your side being a nit?

Buzz

[Micturition Man]

[ QUOTE ]
why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

you have position and a decent hand.

i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked, with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

stop being nits! gambol.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hadn't noticed this post until buzz responded but I think it is very well put.

The playability of a hand is a function of it's strength AND position.

When you get as late as the cut-off, the bottom end of your opening distribution should consist of decently coordinated high hands. Badly coordinated high hands are still unplayable, and well-coordinated high hands are not at the bottom.

The analogy with 97s is perfect imo. Is it a good hand? Not really. Is it good enough? I think so.

[gergery]

Fold preflop as default play.

you could look at it a couple ways:
1) As a rough guideline, Bill Boston's book KKT9 as top 55% of hands for tightish fullring game, and stealing w that range is too loose for most games

2) you could look at its equity. So, vs. random hand hot/cold you're even money vs. a top 25% hand and around a 42-57% (or 1.35 to 1) dog. Comparing this to limit holdem, for example, makes your hand roughly equivalent to say T6s, Q5o, or 22.

3) you might argue that with that equity, you are getting odds and have positon so you can play it. But that means that the blinds are also getting odds and so are much less likely to fold. sort of equivalent to LHE when blinds defend super loose

4) But those equities only show hot/cold. When actually playing, your hand is sorta like 22 from LHE: it is not in bad shape equity wise to many hands, can hit big, will often be ahead on the flop but opponets will always have outs, but most of the time won't know where it stands. as a result you are at a playing disadvantage. Here for example, you flopped the most likely flop you would expect: 2 low cards, no set and you have a tough time on the flop.

5) all that said, there are times you steal here: when blinds don't defend correctly, play bad postflop, when fits into overall metagame strategy, etc.

-g

[hoppscot22]

[ QUOTE ]
can hit big, will often be ahead on the flop but opponets will always have outs, but most of the time won't know where it stands. as a result you are at a playing disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really shouldnt be playing omaha 8 or better if that is seriously how you feel about the game, your opponents will almost always have outs, and that definitely does not mean you are playing at a disadvantage, sorry thats just wrong

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
can hit big, will often be ahead on the flop but opponets will always have outs, but most of the time won't know where it stands. as a result you are at a playing disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really shouldnt be playing omaha 8 or better if that is seriously how you feel about the game, your opponents will almost always have outs, and that definitely does not mean you are playing at a disadvantage, sorry thats just wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't decide whether you are deliberately obtuse, have poor reading comprehension, or are a troll. What about being put to tough decisions not knowing where your hand stands is unclear to you? This is basic poker 101: you are way behind, or you are ahead with your opponents having a bunch of outs

[TMTTR]

More questions than answers...

How much does the preflop and flop fold equity play here? If the BB is a reasonably tight player and can fold preflop near 50% of the time and will fold on the flop to a c-bet when he misses, I think a raise from late position with this kind of hand is good. Is open limping from late position ever "correct" in a LO8 game?

The hand develops on the turn in a way that they so often do in O8. OP has acquired a very good draw and the low hasn't come yet. But before OP can decide what to do, the BB leads out. So now is this a tricky move or does he have a real hand? In O8, I suspect its a "real hand" but that could be a monster draw (which we lead at this point) or a made hand (2 pair or set). Once I get to this position, I don't think I can fold. If you are behind, you have between 5 and 16 outs to scoop the pot...

That is my ruminating... I think I either raise or fold preflop depending on the blinds -- if I raise, I play it exactly the same as OP.

Tough spot --

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
How much does the preflop and flop fold equity play here?

[/ QUOTE ]TMTTR - I think I understand what you mean by preflop equity, but what is "flop fold equity"?

At any rate, after the flop it's a new ball game. Then after the turn it may be another new ball game.

[ QUOTE ]
Is open limping from late position ever "correct" in a LO8 game?

[/ QUOTE ]Hmm. Why would it be incorrect?

Omaha-8 is a drawing game. If you figure you'll lose if you miss your draw and win if you make your draw, then you want more opponents calling your raise than the odds are against making your draw. Especially when you take into consideration the chance of having to split the pot with low, you often will not have enough opponents to have favorable odds to initiate fresh money into the pot, but considering the amount that will be in the pot at the showdown, you often will have favorable odds to call a bet.

Thus it is often correct to call a bet (because you consider the total amount that will be in the pot at the showdown when calculating your odds) while at the same time it will be incorrect to raise (because you compare the number of opponents contributing to your odds of making your draw).

I'm not sure if you grasp those principles - but that's the gist of it.

Is it ever correct to call in late position? ...Hello... <font color="red">Of course it is!</font> It's often correct when you're drawing - and you usually are (should be) drawing.

Seems to me we've been over this again and again. Am I missing something?

[ QUOTE ]
OP has acquired a very good draw and the low hasn't come yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Well... he has 8 outs for the high nuts (the non diamond aces, nines and eights). But six of the outs (aces and eights) also enable low.
Hard to know about the diamond ace, nine, and eight. (Hero makes a straight but does Villain make a flush)? Also hard to know about all the remaining cards. Does that constitute a "very good draw"??

[ QUOTE ]
But before OP can decide what to do, the BB leads out. So now is this a tricky move or does he have a real hand?


[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. Hero can't tell where the Hell he is in the hand!

[ QUOTE ]
In O8, I suspect its a "real hand" but that could be a monster draw (which we lead at this point) or a made hand (2 pair or set). Once I get to this position, I don't think I can fold. If you are behind, you have between 5 and 16 outs to scoop the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]Rather vague, isn't it.

[ QUOTE ]
Tough spot --

[/ QUOTE ]Yep.

With only one opponent, Hero doesn't have odds to draw, but the draw does add to Hero's chances. And that is how it happens when you don't have a very good fit with the flop but continue anyhow. Many or most possible turn cards increase your chances somewhat. In this case, after this flop, more than half of the unseen cards would give Hero some sort of increased chance to win - albeit most of them not as good as the jacks.

And Hero can't tell where he's at, can't tell if the pressure is real or a bullying tactic.

Buzz

[TMTTR]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I understand what you mean by preflop equity, but what is "flop fold equity"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both preflop and on the flop, I am talking about the equity added by the probability that your opponent(s) will fold. A raise preflop from late position might win you the blinds -- then you don't have to worry about whether you make your draw or get outdrawn -- you take the small pot right there. Similarly, on the flop -- regardless of whether you are ahead or behind, there is some chance that the blind will fold if you bet (i.e., continuing the steal attempt) -- there is equity in that (although it might be overwhelmed by the negative equity from your opponent raising or calling with a better hand). I might have my terminology screwed up but that is the concept I am talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus it is often correct to call a bet (because you consider the total amount that will be in the pot at the showdown when calculating your odds) while at the same time it will be incorrect to raise (because you compare the number of opponents contributing to your odds of making your draw).

I'm not sure if you grasp those principles - but that's the gist of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I grasp the principle that you can call a bet in many circumstances where you couldn't raise. My question was limited to the circumstance: that it is (1) preflop, (2)you are in late position (the button or possibly CO), and (3) no one has entered the pot yet. The concept -- taken from the voluminous material on HE -- is that if you are going to play this hand at all, it is better to take control now and raise. You either have a hand that has value or you are representing that you have a hand that has value. Why let the blinds in for free (or cheap) with random hands? Even a reraise tells me more than a raise after my limp.

I may not be stating myself clearly as I am posting from work -- I will rethink later.