Waiting for the BB - ok?

[AKQJ10]

A better question is, how small must be your winrate so that you're better off waiting say six hands (12 minutes) than sacrificing the EV of paying one blind in decent position (in this case, two off the button)?

The cost of posting, say, a $4 extra blind is less than $4. You're allowed to get dealt aces that hand. You're allowed to see a free flop and hit your big blind special, only this time you'll make more in position. You're allowed to steal if the table is tight (though you should immediately change tables if this is working often), and when you steal you'll be investing less than if you open-raised from the button.

The problem with waiting six hands isn't that it looks like a nit; the problem IMO is that, in any game you're beating soundly, you've given up the opportunity cost of the six hands!

I seem to remember an Ed Miller article stating that this is hotly debated so I'll leave off here because my argument has probably been made many times over.

[icepick]

Come in UTG and straddle.

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
Come in UTG and straddle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good advice.

Many of the rooms in my area don't require you to post when sitting in. A lot of people sit around and wait until the blinds pass, and sit in in the cutoff and get their first orbit free.

Post or no post, I usually just start playing unless I'm UTG or +1. I have straddled from UTG to start a session. Heh.

[pfapfap]

In the long run, it really doesn't matter, and I prefer the "just a fun player" image that comes with posting immediately. If I'm walking up as the deal is going around and the dealer asks if I want to post, I'll usually toss some chips in with a "sure, let's play!" type of comment before I even sit. Tho' the higher the limit, the less you'll look like a nit for waiting until the cutoff. But at 6/12 or below, just post wherever (except UTG).

[adenosine]

I always find these threads interesting, because in every casino I've ever been to (in WA), you don't have to post, and you only have to wait if you're on the button or in the SB. Why make people post if they are going to have to put out the blind when it gets to them anyway? It seems like more places should switch to this style.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Why make people post if they are going to have to put out the blind when it gets to them anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

In principle you could game the system: come in for the first time in the cut-off, play a free orbit, post natural blinds, play another orbit, pick up when the blinds reach you, decide you want to play a different game.

Repeat. Now decide you want to play at the cardroom next door.

Etc. Throw in a few long "smoking breaks" and be sure to ask for comps if the room you're in gives them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You'd only be paying half the blinds if you could pull this off, but your transaction costs of moving around looking and waiting for open seats would offset any gain in blinds so it would be silly.

[SellingtheDrama]

You pay to receive the future hands with the blinds - they pay for you to get to see the next 8 (assuming 10 handed) hands free.

Effectively you pay 1.5x the big blind for 10 hands (using a $5 BB, that's $0.75/hand). If you post in the cutoff, you get 7 hands for $5, 71 cents per hand. The CO-1 its 6 hands, or 83 cents per. After that, its just not a good value, plus you are paying to play the middle position slots, not the profitable late position ones.

Stud is so much simpler in this regard, just ante up any hand you want to play and you get it.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
its just not a good value

[/ QUOTE ]

Your calculations aren't considering the opportunity cost of time. If your winrate is $0.00/hr, then this omission is fine. If you have your choice between a game where you come in as the natural BB or another where you post in LMP, your assumption is fine.

If your choice is sitting there making zero for a quarter of an hour or making a < 1 BBL investment to get 5 or 6 hands on which you have an edge, it's not so clear cut.

If it's only three hands, I'll generally wait.

[SellingtheDrama]

well yeah...those weren't exactly the most sophisticated calculations [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Generally I follow about your rule of thumb.

[Forbin]

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The people I love are the ones who post UTG/UTG+1 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I love the ones who miss a blind and return UTG, but instead of waiting one hand, they post both a BB and dead SB while UTG.

Mmm...