Moderate Muslims and Catholics-Nice But Dumb?

[David Sklansky]

First change "dumb" to "inconsistent". Shocking titles get more hits.

Secondly the two subjects I'm going to bring up are quite seperate and each is important in their own right. But I lumped them together because I see a common thread. A thread that can be applied to many things besides these two.

Moderate Muslims can often be seen denouncing Muslim extremeists who espouse violence with the words that the extremists are twisting the Koran's teachings. I have no idea if that is true. But I do know that there have been many western writers who state the it appears the Koran does indeed advocate what the extremists claim. Since that point is bandied about so much why do the moderates not make a major effort to engage extremists in a public debate showing once and for all that both the extremists and the western journalists are wrong? Is it because an accurate reading of the Koran shows them not to be wrong. Are the moderates simply picking and choosing certain things from the Koran to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice? Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

The Catholic analogy relates to whether it is possible to not believe Jesus is the son of God, (even though he is known to you) and still have a chance at heaven. Apparently the Catholic answer is yes. But the fundamentalist Christian answer is no. The fundamentalists express human anguish at this state of affairs that allows a Jonas Salk to go to hell and a rapist to be saved. But on a higher plane they say that God has good reasons for this and more importantly it is not up to them to contradict what is plainly stated in the New Testament. On the SMP forum some Catholic posters have cited a couple of passages that they claim refutes the fundamentalist position but the fundamentalists, especially the articulate NOT READY, have appeared to be able to quickly dispense with these refutations, explaining how those passages are misconstrued and citing numerous passages that state their position. And at least on our forum the Catholics do not debate further. Are the Catholics simply picking and choosing certain things from the Bible to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice? Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

[UpstateMatt]

David:

I suppose one issue here is that for many of the kind of people who seriously engage in these debates within Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism ARE NOT strands of the same religion. I think the first question for any fundamentalist Protestant being engaged in this debate should be, "Do good Catholics go to heaven?" In many cases, the answer will be no. And that's fine. But you need to know the answer to that question up front. Because if the answer is no, you are dealing with an entirely different set of questions.

I can't speech to Islam, but I can imagine that the same sticking point occurs.

I know this doesn't address your main concern in the post, but it's important - it speaks to motive.

mg

[David Sklansky]

Interestingly, Not Ready clearly states that believing that non believers can be saved is NOT a belief that keeps you from heaven. If that makes sense.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Are the moderates simply picking and choosing certain things from the Koran [Bible] to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and this goes for both Christians and Muslims.

[ QUOTE ]
The Catholic analogy relates to whether it is possible to not believe Jesus is the son of God, (even though he is known to you) and still have a chance at heaven. Apparently the Catholic answer is yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being raised a Catholic I respectfully disagree. Belief in Jesus as god is the central tenet of the Catholic faith, just as it is with any other Christian church. Some liberal Catholics try to get around this by citing the Catholic Church's position on "baptism of desire". But here is the relevant quote from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

"Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized"

So we are talking about an exception for:
-unbaptized martyrs
-people studying to be Catholics but who die before baptism
-good people who have never heard of the Church

It certainly does not mean that Catholics think good Jews, Muslims, etc. are going to heaven. They don't. Or, if they do it is their own morality saying it, not any teaching of the church.

[benjdm]

My experience is that the moderate or liberal believers do not hold the source book (Koran / Bible) as authoritative. Which does put them on a weird footing. They are often pretty reasonable and positive people, but have little standing to challenge either the non-believers or the fundamentalists.

I've tried to argue that cherry picking from the Bible is no worse than not-cherry picking from the Bible. The Bible itself is the result of cherry picking, editing, and censorship from long ago. Other then historical accuracy, there is no good reason to favor one result of cherry-picking over another.

[punter11235]

Did you read any of Sam Harris books, David ?
He has similar view on this subject.

[soon2bepro]

I don't know about the Koran, but The Bible has quite a bit of passages most christians won't like you to see.

I made an illustrative post about this not too long ago. Most of you probably didn't notice. (Or maybe you didn't care)
Bible quotes post

[mikechops]

I'm not a student of either the bible or the Koran, but it seems likely to me that both sides can find evidence to support their positions. Hence, "The devil can quote scripture."

Religions can be looked at as memes competing in a darwinian fashion for followers. Religions that are too doctrinaire about how to behave towards non-believers, would be less likely to survive than those that allowed followers some wiggle room. If both a hard-line and a concilliatory approach can be justified from the scripture, followers can decide upon the most advantageous course depending upon the precise political factors they find themselves in.

It would appear that the two most successful world religions are both somewhat ambiguous as to how to regard non-believers.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
Moderate Muslims can often be seen denouncing Muslim extremists…

[/ QUOTE ]


Often? I find it rare, I could just be missing most of them.


[ QUOTE ]
But I do know that there have been many western writers who state the it appears the Koran does indeed advocate what the extremists claim…

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not being sarcastic when I say, I guess I have no clue about this stuff then. I haven’t come across that. But, don’t go by me. I get most of my news from TV.

[ QUOTE ]
…Since that point is bandied about so much why do the moderates not make a major effort to engage extremists in a public debate showing once and for all that both the extremists and the western journalists are wrong? Is it because an accurate reading of the Koran shows them not to be wrong. Are the moderates simply picking and choosing certain things from the Koran to coincide with common sense and a desire to be nice? Nothing wrong with that but they should admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Pope really was trying to engage intelligent debate with the Muslims when he spoke at University in Germany not long ago. I guess no Muslim intellectual felt up to the task.

Regarding your Catholic point:

I think most Catholics feel that regardless of what we believe, it is God who judges. Most of us feel that it is not for us to “decide” these things.

Yes, our Church teaches and even promulgates certain things to/for us Catholics. But, to judge others (even ourselves) , really is not our place.

RJT

[George Rice]

It being Christmas time, reviewing Jeremiah 10 couldn't hurt:

[ QUOTE ]
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let Us Rejoice And Sing!

Oh Christmas Tree

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree!
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

Not only in the summertime,
But even in winter is thy prime.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!
Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Thy candles shine out brightly!