Curtains vs PoG

[StregaChess]

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Achieves nothing after Re1 Rc6
Qb5.

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what happens after qb5..a6?
or is a6 very awful at that point?

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He takes our b-pawn and now we are two pawns down.

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His d-pawn is hanging you need to look further than just claim we are down to pawns, this is not even something white would have play, pawn grabbing and running off like a patzer...

[TimM]

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I think f3 is best for him after Qd5+
f3 Rc6
Bd2 finally linking his rooks.

Rc6 still seems like the superior move here, as we are not sure if the Q belongs on b6, d7 or d5. Qd5 I think is mistakenly overanxious and denies that square to our Knight.

If now...Rc6 then perhaps White responds with
Be3 Qd7
Rfe1 Rec8 seizing the c-file, followed by Nd5 knocking his bishop off e3/f4 [the best squares for his B], then Nb4 with our rooks coming to rest on c2 and his second rank.

His dark-squared B cannot defend c2. That is the weakest point in his position, so we must go after it. With a rook on c2 his a2 and f2 are very week, and a later Qd5+ leaves his f-pawn pinned. At a minimum, we can win back the excess a-pawn and create a passed pawn on the Queenside where our pieces would dominate. [Also his Bishop cannot defend the queening square b1, so should we get a passed pawn on that file that could be an advantage for us.]

Naj

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I don't think our knight can use d5 well anyway. Bd2 is always there covering not only f4 e3 c3 and b4, but also e1 and c1 meaning that if we double rooks on either file, he can just oppose on the same file with one of his rooks.

So I don't see how the inclusion of Qd5+ f3 hurts us in these lines (19...Rc6 vs 19...Qd5+ 20.f3 Rc6). Regardless of being able to use f2 for a rook, it certainly weakens the king's cover long term.

We aren't getting to c2. He can answer any rook doubling attempt with Bd2 and Rc1 or e1. You are dreaming if you think he will just let us get into his 2nd rank without it being forced. Not to mention, you are thinking of the queening square of our b-pawn? What about the dark squares in front of there, they don't count? Or the fact that it's no where near being passed?

[ScottHoward]

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ive changed my mind
i like ne4 now
if somebody smart can tell me whites reply to ne4, that would help me see why im stupid.

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Achieves nothing after Re1 Rc6
Qb5.

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wait a second, why do we move rc6? when I looked at it before , I thought you meant rc3? did you mean rc3 or rc6?
since we are all learning, and assuming ne4 is met with re1, and you meant rc3 not rc6, how are we doing after this:
…ne4
re1…rc3
qb5…rc2
im sure there something obvious im not seeing, but thats why i suck

[StregaChess]

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since we are all learning, and assuming ne4 is met with re1, and you meant rc3 not rc6, how are we doing after this:
…ne4
re1…rc3
qb5…rc2
im sure there something obvious im not seeing, but thats why i suck

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19. exd4 Ne4
20. Re1

So we have 20.... Rc3
21. Qb5 a6
22. Qxb7 Qxd5

or maybe just 20... Qd5

There is always "stuff" in between and yes I think he meant Rc3, otherwise why Qb5?

[ScottHoward]

why bother with a6 after qb5? why not just qb5...rc2?

[StregaChess]

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why bother with a6 after qb5? why not just qb5...rc2?

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OK, I don't like the queen on b5 as it's attacking the rook at e8, keeping our queen pinned to the back rank. You want to be able to launch all of your pieces into the action so a6 to deflect the queen. And I prefer Queen taking the d-pawn as opposed to dropping the rook in at c2. That's what I was thinking...

[David Steele]

It seems like Tim's idea Qd5 Kg1 Ne7 works, where nothing else quite does. His answer to f3 with Qc6 also looks strong. Anyone sees a problem with these lines?

D.

[ScottHoward]

ne7?

[NajdorfDefense]

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I think f3 is best for him after Qd5+
f3 Rc6
Bd2 finally linking his rooks.

Rc6 still seems like the superior move here, as we are not sure if the Q belongs on b6, d7 or d5. Qd5 I think is mistakenly overanxious and denies that square to our Knight.

If now...Rc6 then perhaps White responds with
Be3 Qd7
Rfe1 Rec8 seizing the c-file, followed by Nd5 knocking his bishop off e3/f4 [the best squares for his B], then Nb4 with our rooks coming to rest on c2 and his second rank.

His dark-squared B cannot defend c2. That is the weakest point in his position, so we must go after it. With a rook on c2 his a2 and f2 are very week, and a later Qd5+ leaves his f-pawn pinned.

Naj

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Bd2 is always there covering not only f4 e3 c3 and b4, but also e1 and c1 meaning that if we double rooks on either file, he can just oppose on the same file with one of his rooks.

We aren't getting to c2. He can answer any rook doubling attempt with Bd2 and Rc1 or e1. You are dreaming if you think he will just let us get into his 2nd rank without it being forced.

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I think you are missing the point, Tim.

With Rc6 followed by Rc8 and a later Nb4, we dominate the c2 square. The bishop can't defend it and if he defends with Rc1 we still play...Rc2, if he exchanges RxR we also exchange RxRc2 and have a defended Rook on c2. He cannot take our second rook with his Q because the Knight defends it.
If he then plays Rc1 to move us off the file, we take his a2 pawn and we are still happy on his second rank AND defended by our b4 Knight.

I think Rc6 first is better with a later Qd7, or Qd5+ or Qb6 depending on what Curtains does. An immediate Qd5+ is not better than Rc6...Qd5 with the same + and f3 if need be.

The distant endgame ideas are just that, not immediate threats, c'mon now, you know this.
Most people on this thread don't know what a Queenside attack is or how to create a passed pawn, or what weak squares to look for in a NvB endgame - I'm suggesting one possible winning endgame idea, doesn't mean it automatically happens, of course.

[NajdorfDefense]

Sorry, I confused my self be changing the Rc3 to Rc6, my error, I thought I got my alegraic wrong.