30/60 river.......

[sublime]

my notes on opponent are: too loose preflop when shorthanded and a tad overaggressive. hes onw of those guys who doesnt stick oyut to me otherwise, which means he either doesnt play much or is just an average bleh player. i dont have PT stats for this site.

full table, good action. loose with average aggression

i limp UTG with QJ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

1 caller, villian calls in CO, SB calls, BB raises, all call except SB

flop is QT8r

BB bets, i raise, one fold, villian cold calls, BB calls

turn is 2, putting two clubs.

we lose the BB

river is non flush J (pot is 9BB+)

i bet this and was raised. I called. is this JT/J8 often enough? probably yea. any NOT bet this river? probably not. i am just checking in here.

[Dazarath]

God, I hate these spots. If I consider villain to be even the slightest bit over-aggro, then I want to see showdown. If I can't bring myself to bet/call the river, then I'll check/call. But that's just me personally.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
any NOT bet this river? probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems like a good idea.

1. It will save you a lot of bets verus betcall.

2. Most of the worse hands that are calling you are two pair by now or else AQ/KQ. Most of the time those hands will bet for you and you won't lose anything.

Based on this reasoning checkcall is better than betcall. Betfold might be better than betcall but it's obviously at least close because you will fold the best hand now and then. Therefore checkcall is also better than betfold.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
any NOT bet this river? probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems like a good idea.

1. It will save you a lot of bets verus betcall.

2. Most of the worse hands that are calling you are two pair by now or else AQ/KQ. Most of the time those hands will bet for you and you won't lose anything.

Based on this reasoning checkcall is better than betcall. Betfold might be better than betcall but it's obviously at least close because you will fold the best hand now and then. Therefore checkcall is also better than betfold.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good reasoning. i wish i thought like this at the table, or at least away from it more often.

[Derek123]

I think bet/call is usually best here. I think he has KJ, AT, KQ, KT here often enough that he calls a bet, but checks it through if you check it.

It seems that some of the players who are a bit overaggressive in other streets will still check the river through in marginal spots to see a sd. Once raised I think you see JT, J8 or another QJ often enough to call.

[poker1O1]

I like stellar's post, and given that villian is overaggressive, I really like a c/c here, you might even get a bet from a busted draw

[Nate.]

I'm also in the check-call camp. Alternately phrased, I think you can expect to win the majority of the first bet that goes in, but the amount you lose paying off the second bet more than offets it (but you still can't fold, or so the theory goes).

[tl65\]

I'm usually a fan of bet/calling in this situation, but with an overaggressive opponent, and if you're confident he's gonna bet if you check to him, what about a checkraise? You have a very good hand, and you're probably going to get a crying call from any worse two pair hand he's going to bet. Really, what hand is he going to call two cold on the flop with that has you beat, Q9?

Also, do you usually limp QJs in early position? If i decide i'm going to play it, i'm raising about 90% of the time.

[counterspell]

if i can't limp QJs in EP, i'm switching tables.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
if i can't limp QJs in EP, i'm switching tables.

[/ QUOTE ]
Too dogmatic. Tables can be very good without being a safe place to limp QJs. It depends on how the table is setup and what is wrong with your opponents. A very good situation is to have a couple of loose bad players on your right (currently the blinds) with the LAG-TAG sharks behind them in the LP chairs. But in exchange for coining money the rest of the orbit you need to play like a rock in EP or you'll be 3-bets OOP everytime you play cheese.

I usually limp QJs UTG. I fold at overaggressive tables. I raise a certain amount to diversify my UTG raises. I limp a few premiums UTG for the same reason.