Stealing. Many questions of how, when ...

[mshalen]

I am making an effort to move from playing tight-weak to tight-aggressive and stealing is the weakest part of my MTT game. I have been doing very well lately in MTTs but this is mostly due to when my short stack goes all in and I win a few races - which typically means I am always one of the lowest stack sizes once the MTT gets into the money and then through to the final table or I bust out just short of the money. As Dean Whormer said "that is no way to go through life", so I need to change some tactics of my game.

I was playing late into the Stars $20/180 (which has become my favorite MTT) and as usual the size of the blinds were moving in the opposite direction of my stack. There were, in retrospect, numerous oportunities to steal the increasing blinds but I didn't/couldn't pull the trigger. I have seen numerous comments mentioning stealing but have never seen an extensive discussion of the who, when, how ... of doing this. I hope the following questions will lead to such a discussion. Please note that these questions are not of the low M push all in types of steals but are limited to your garden variety bet 3 BB types of steals.

1. At what point in an MTT do you start to steal? Is that point stictly determined by the blind/ante size or does stack size (both M and Q) come into play?

2. Position. How important is position? Is position a fixed concept (TJ has said he steals from EP because people will put him on a big hand) or is your decision to steal also influenced by stack size and cards? ie. you will steal with a large stack in EP with any two but if a smaller stack you will only steal in LP with a somewhat marginal hand or better.

3. Hand selection. What are the minimum hand requirements that you use to steal? Harrington states that he likes to have at least some kind of hand just in case he is called. Is your minimum hand requirement influenced by position or is it fixed?

4. Opponents stack sizes and aggression? Does the stack size of the SB and BB influence your stealing? Is your decision different if the BB is short stack, medium stack or big stack? How does the aggresiveness of the SB and BB factor into your decision?

5.What do you do if re-raised? Instant fold or call based on pot odds? Aggressiveness, position or stack size of reraiser a factor in decison?

I hope that the above questions lead to a lively discusssion and thank you in advance to everyone who participates.

[TwistedEcho]

The short answer, It depends.

For me, i generally begin stealing when antes kick in on pstars, and about 100-200/150-300 on party. Obv stacksize also depends, but there is less point raising A6o from the CO when blinds are 15-30 because A) they are more likely to call you, and B) you barely win anything when you do get the to fold.

Position does matter to an extent, as the earlier you raise, the more likely someone will have a hand thats worth reraising/calling. When you raise A3 on the button, its not just to steal the blinds, but also because A3 is often better than 2 random hands. I tend to make my looser steals from 1/2 off the button, as people give you more respect, and generally i am tigher on the button if the blinds are thinking players, mainly because people assume button raises = steal so often now, and i hate being played back at.

Hand selection depends on the table and my image. If its bubble time and the table is tight, and i have a good image i'll raise lots more things from LP than i would if the blinds were aggressive or my image was horrible. I prefer the blinds to have 10-20bb, a nice medium stack.

A tight bigstack is often good to steal vs too, as sometimes they see their bigstack as something to protect, and dont want to risk losing chunks of it, so will continually fold their blinds to your steals, as will medium stacks who are waiting for hands, and don't want to bust out.

If im reraised, it all depends. The other day in party 40k, i had 28k and blinds were 400-800. It was folded to me on the CO, and i raised JTo to 2000, my standard raise at this point. The sb make it 4200 total, and he had 15k behind. I called, and pushed the QKx flop. Obviously there is no shame in folding, as people expect you to steal, but if you are both fairly deep, i often will call with most holdings (altho if im raising Arag, i generally let it go).

I'm probably on the tigher end of stealing, and often will pass hands i probably shouldn't, but im working on it. Hope thats helpful

[Lloyd]

Read the anthology. There is info there.

[mrbaseball]

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Read the anthology

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This is what I hate most about these forums. Read, this, read that, do a search. Of course no link provided.

This is a discussion board! We should be discussing and not just rereading old discussions (although many old discussions are outstanding). This kind of response sqelching discussion is a very bad trend.

[Lloyd]

Nice addition to the discussion.

Feel free to discuss away. But on topics that have been discussed extensively before you're not going to get me or most other older posters to contribute. Consider the FAQ and Anthology base knowledge that I expect every poster in MTT to have. From there, I'm happy to rehash and continue where the discussion left off, clarify things, even contradict things.

[mrbaseball]

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1. At what point in an MTT do you start to steal?

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Depends on a lot of things. Stacks and oppononents mainly. Steals won't work in round one or two but become very selectively available in round 3 and neccessary by round 5.

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2. Position. How important is position?

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Position is key. Depending on the nature of the table you can make some early position plays but this is risky and you should have good reads. The double edged sword of position is often the blinds will put you on a steal when you are button or cutoff and go for a resteal so you need to learn how the blinds will react when you are in srteal position.


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3. Hand selection

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Any 2'll do! For me the cards mean very little if the situation (ie stacks, position, opponents tendancies etc) offer up the opportunity for a successful steal.

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4. Opponents stack sizes and aggression?

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You can't steal from a short stack. They will push often if they are even close to pot committed. Mega stacks will often call anything as well. This is player dependant but it's best to attack medium and average sized stacks.

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5.What do you do if re-raised? Instant fold or call based on pot odds?

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If the odds are good I'll call. If I strongly suspect a resteal I may come all the way over the top. Very player and stack dependant though.

When stealing you often have to fire a second bullet on the flop. You raise and get a caller and the flop doesn't hit your garbage hand. You fire at that pot like you have pocket AA! Although like everything else this is player and card dependant. If I steal raise with crap and the flop comes A high I will almost always "represent" that ace. If the flop comes momotone or highly coordinated I usually back off but not always. Like everything else it depends.

Play a practice stealing tourney. Those $22 180 sngs would be good for this. Try to steal every unopened pot from the button, cutoff and cutoff -1. You will be amazed and learn a lot as well for the exersize.

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I hope that the above questions lead to a lively discusssion

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So do I but around these parts it's doubtful.

[BadgerPro]

One of the most important things I consider when stealing is how weak/tight my opponent is. I look to steal from players who will easily give up their blinds.

[mshalen]

Lloyd,

Perhaps I should have been move explicit in my original post. I have reviewed the threads listed in both the FAQ and anthology (and possibly participated in some of the original discussions) and feel that those threads do not adequately answer my specific questions. Do they bring up the concept of stealing? Yes. But my problem is that the entire concept of stealing is only addressed in passing within the larger context of a different question. During the past year I have seen numerous references to stealing but mostly the comments are of the kind "you need to steal more when the blinds get big" or "I start to steal more and bully the smaller stacks".

I believe that I (and many of the posters and lurkers here) would benefit from an indepth discussion of the overall concept of stealing. Right now I am sitting in my den and can see a book shelf full of poker books (yes it looks like the east coast distribution warehouse of 2+2) and see very little in the way of poker literature that addresses my questions.

I have benefited significantly (both in knowledge and bankroll size) due to the discussions I have read and/or participated in here and merely wanted to give back to the community in the form of starting an in depth discusssion of a topic that is usually commented upon in passing. If people freely choose to participate or not that is their choice.

Michael

[gobboboy]

Until the average stack is around 20 big blinds, most raises that I make are not flatout steals. I'm very aggressive and very loose preflop when it comes to raising with suited connectors, suited aces, kings, etc. One of the key things is that calling reraises is a very poor idea unless you have a very strong hand. Aces smaller than AQ should immediately get thrown and all kings should get thrown unless he's a big bully and has shown down a lot of mediocre hands.

The key to stealing successfully is having a good image. Don't show down a lot of bluffs. Even if you show down some bad hands, showing down the BEST hand is often the best way to get respect. This is one reason why chucking to a reraiser while out of position is key.

Honestly, stealing is one of the easiest things to do. All you need to do is raise and then fold when you get played back at. It may feel like you're being weaktight, but one of those times you're going to have a real hand. People really don't reraise light very often at all, though it feels like they're trying to bully you just about every time. People are afraid of your raises too.

On that note, NEVER OPEN RAISE MORE THAN THREE TIMES THE BIG BLIND. I see so many people open raise so much more than they have to. At the 1k/2k level, if someone is folding for an extra 4k, they will almost always fold for an extra 3k. Don't be throwing extra money out there. It makes it much easier to fold to a reraise because the odds don't drag you in and it hurts a lot less when you have to fold. It also lets you make much smaller bets after the flop. It's all about pot control.

I think, actually, something that a lot of people on 2+2 could work on better (instead of stealing, something which people do frequently but should pick their spots better in) is defending your blinds. People say "It's not your money, it's in the pot already." It's still money that you could be playing for. A lot of people in MTT's raise far too much late in a tournament. There are people who raise 9x the big blind for no reason. I recommend staying away from these people without a real hand. On the other hand, there are some people who minraise or do a smaller raise of about 3x the big blind. I love these people. When you're in the big blind, I recommend defending against a minraise with almost any two cards, and against a 3x raise I will call with suited one gappers, any pair, suited aces, big kings, hands like JT, and against some people when the blinds are large I call raises with things like J6o out of the blinds just because I can take the pot away from people.

One of the best examples of this is leading the flop. It is incredibly frustrating when people lead into me on the flop when I completely whiff, and your opponents will think that too. You can't do it that often, but leading the flop for a significant bet (half to two-thirds the pot) often will take it down right there.

Bear in mind that most of my blind defense suggestions apply not from UTG raises or raises from notoriously tight players. Give them respect unless you have a decent hand. Minraises though, I will almost always call. The pot is too big to let go for so few chips late in a tournament.

The best way to get better at blind defense and stealing is working on your postflop play. Figure out what different bets mean, what different kinds of players do at certain times and with certain hands. Experience is vitally important for this, and postflop play is something that everyone (even 2+2ers) can work on. I'm not trying to sound snobby here, since I will be the first to admit that I am about a 5 out of 10 on my postflop play sometimes.

Mix up your play, try something different every once in a while. Being unpredictable is a great way to improve your game and picking up a lot of pots. When your range is possibly any two cards, people be confused a LOT of the time.

[Emon96]

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The best way to get better at blind defense and stealing is working on your postflop play. Figure out what different bets mean, what different kinds of players do at certain times and with certain hands. Experience is vitally important for this, and postflop play is something that everyone (even 2+2ers) can work on. I'm not trying to sound snobby here, since I will be the first to admit that I am about a 5 out of 10 on my postflop play sometimes.

Mix up your play, try something different every once in a while. Being unpredictable is a great way to improve your game and picking up a lot of pots. When your range is possibly any two cards, people be confused a LOT of the time.

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Are you SURE your not Matt Matros?? I swear this is something he has been talking about extensively on his site and even has a generous amount of hand quizzes on this subject. Becoming a good post-flop player (im prolly a 2 out of 10 if you are interested) is essential to learning this and that can only be done by seeing flops. Every once-in -a-while i play a minbuy MTT and try to enter a TON of hands for cheap just to see what different bets mean against someone that players may or may not consider a calling station. Just this exercise has helped me act in very much a good way when i get those people at my table.

As for stealing, i too am interested in a deeper discussion on the subjct, but i have a feeling that your wealth of poker books not having much to say on the subject definately illustrates that it is a timing play more than anything (ya know "read dependant")

For example, we now know [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] that gobbo will defend his blind with great voracity...do you think it is a good idea to try to steal his blind when there are antes out there?? I see the chances of my steal being successful dropping dramatically, so maybe gobbo's blind isnt easily for sale. This is all the help my feeble brain can provide...
run goot