Two Live Overpair vs. Flop Shove Scenarios

[Todd Terry]

I've cast myself as Hero in one of these, Villian in the other. Hero and Villain both somewhat active in both situations, no other relevant reads.

Hand 1 - Foxwoods $3K MegaStack

Hero and Villian both have 19K, 100/200/25. MP who limps into every pot limps, Villain raises to 800, Hero raises to 2500 on button with QQ, MP folds, Villain calls. Flop 6 5 4 rainbow, Villian checks, Hero bets 4K, Villain shoves. Hero?

Hand 2 - Borgata $1500

Hero and Villain both have 9K, 50/100. Villain raises UTG to 250, gets 4 callers, Hero raises to 1100 with KK in SB. Villain calls, rest fold. Flop: 7h 5h 3c. Hero bets 2500, Villain shoves. Hero?

[ZJ123]

i talk myself into calling 1, 2 is a slightly easier call

[nath]

i think i call both, probably raise more preflop in both too

the idea is that the action so far should knock out most of the hands that are beating you PF, and it's easy to shove these boards with all sorts of holdings and these stacks

[jlocdog]

Todd Terry,

Both hands seem like a call. I don't think you played the KK hand by the way. Raise is way too small.

Nath,

"the idea is that the action so far should knock out most of the hands that are beating you PF"

Are you implying he folds out better then his holding?

[bruce]

The preflop action will elminate hands that outflop him.

Bruce

[jlocdog]

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop action will elminate hands that outflop him.

Bruce

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what this means. Are you saying we want worse hands to fold PF because we want to avoid being outflopped? If so, I don't agree.

[bruce]

Hand 1 is pretty close and my default mechanism is to fold.

Hand 2, the reraise from the small blind, makes the hand pretty transparent. Unless villian is exhibiting fifth level thinking, I would probably fold also.

Bruce

[bruce]

I probably shouldn't speak for Nath, but I think he meant that the preflop raising and reraising would eliminate hands that could outflop a big pocket pair.

Bruce

[nath]

All I'm saying is that hands that beat our hands on those boards consist almost entirely of pocket cards that should have been folded to the preflop reraise. Didn't think it was that complicated.

[jlocdog]

I just read it accenting the wrong part of the sentence I guess. Retardedly stoned. Got it now and agree.....thus my recommendation for the call.