Dealer's call

[highsididy]

I was playing 2/5 for the first time in AC
i have pocket 10's on a flop of j-j-2 i make bet and get called....turn is a blank....river blank...i bet 50 other guy goes all in for 600 i have about 200 ...i look down at my chips and move them from behind my card to the front of my cards and try to count them and decide if im going to call.

dealer says that i made a move and that i have to call? wtf
th bettingline at the table was like 8 inches away and i never extended my ams out towards the table or ever looked at the guy. The floor comes over and we agrue about the call?
i finally call anyway but alot of people at the table said i didnt have to call there and i should have spoken to someone higher then the floor.

Does this ever happened to anyone? Can the dealer make that type of call heads up?

[killsadie]

the ruling of this outcome is strictly on if you won the hand or not.. soooo did ya win!??!

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
my chips and move them from behind my card to the front of my cards and try to count them and decide if im going to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

You made a forward motion and put chips out in front of your cards. You've made a bet/call. As soon as your release chips in front of your cards constitutes making a bet/call/raise. Dont make forward motion next time and keep the chips behind your cards. Correct ruling.

Regarding the line. If they have a "betting line" it may not actually be a betting line except in tournaments. I know Venetian and several others in Vegas use the line only for tournaments and some don't use them at all because of problems like this.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my chips and move them from behind my card to the front of my cards and try to count them and decide if im going to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

You made a forward motion and put chips out in front of your cards. You've made a bet/call. As soon as your release chips in front of your cards constitutes making a bet/call/raise. Dont make forward motion next time and keep the chips behind your cards. Correct ruling.

Regarding the line. If they have a "betting line" it may not actually be a betting line except in tournaments. I know Venetian and several others in Vegas use the line only for tournaments and some don't use them at all because of problems like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even in rooms which don't us ethe line as a "betting line" where something that goes over the line is a bet, there is generally an understanding that a player may count out his chips up to that line without it being called a bet.

If it actually happened the way the OP described I would never call this a "call" and would be shocked to see any dealer make this call. Of course my reading of this post suggests the chips were closer to cards then the line, but if the OP was just grabiing stacks of chips and putting them out near the line (as opposed to bring out a stack and counting it) then i could certainly see it being a "call"

[bav]

If a betting line was in force, you didn't call. But a line on the table doesn't mean anything. Betting lines are totally house dependent.

But otherwise, this move is very often considered a binding call. Any chips that are moved forward past the front edge of your cards are a bet. That's awfully common. And I thought it was an AC "standard". I ain't played in AC more than like 4 hours, but that's what the AC visitors to Vegas keep telling us.

If you want to count your chips, count 'em behind your cards or beside your cards.

[SellingtheDrama]

[ QUOTE ]
If a betting line was in force, you didn't call. But a line on the table doesn't mean anything. Betting lines are totally house dependent.

But otherwise, this move is very often considered a binding call. Any chips that are moved forward past the front edge of your cards are a bet. That's awfully common. And I thought it was an AC "standard". I ain't played in AC more than like 4 hours, but that's what the AC visitors to Vegas keep telling us.

If you want to count your chips, count 'em behind your cards or beside your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

That pretty much sums it up.

The line is a 'put your chips past this point so the dealer can reach easily' line at the Borgata. I have made and seen many bets and folds where the action was binding before the line was broken, much less crossed.

What I will do to make sure I don't get called on this is indicate to the dealer that I'm thinking about it. I also keep my stacks clean for just this purpose, so I can count-down my chips without touching em.

I'd also love to know how you moved your chips from behind your cards to in front of your cards and still had 8 inches to the line.

[highsididy]

i did lose the hand

i never released the chips from my hand i was actually trying to count them when i moved them in front of the cards

my chips were very close to the rail and the cards were right in front of the chips easily giving me 6-8 inches from the line

i personaly think the dealer made a bad call...but i understand them not wanting people to try to getreads on other players...by moving chips and that type of stuff...
but i didnt i think i had to announce that i was counting my chips

thanks for all of the replys

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my chips and move them from behind my card to the front of my cards and try to count them and decide if im going to call.


[/ QUOTE ]

You made a forward motion and put chips out in front of your cards. You've made a bet/call. As soon as your release chips in front of your cards constitutes making a bet/call/raise. Dont make forward motion next time and keep the chips behind your cards. Correct ruling.

Regarding the line. If they have a "betting line" it may not actually be a betting line except in tournaments. I know Venetian and several others in Vegas use the line only for tournaments and some don't use them at all because of problems like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even in rooms which don't us ethe line as a "betting line" where something that goes over the line is a bet, there is generally an understanding that a player may count out his chips up to that line without it being called a bet.

If it actually happened the way the OP described I would never call this a "call" and would be shocked to see any dealer make this call. Of course my reading of this post suggests the chips were closer to cards then the line, but if the OP was just grabiing stacks of chips and putting them out near the line (as opposed to bring out a stack and counting it) then i could certainly see it being a "call"

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the rule at the Wynn in cash games. I've found it to be very inconsistently enforced, but when it was enforced, dealer and floor alike were adamant about it.

[Bremen]

At the Borgata putting any chips in front of your cards is definitly a call (I believe the same holds for all of AC). So the ruling was correct, even if it is a rather crummy rule since it often traps the sunglass wearing kids who make the games good. BTW I've actually seen a father call this on his son where the son then lost his whole stack.

[redfisher]

To specifically answer your question, you are under no obligation to call. The dealer can't rule on jack. In all likelihood he knows the rules and is right, but you can call the floor at any time to get an actual ruling.

There's no reason to flame on a dealer because the house painted a betting line on the table. If you agree with me that painting a "betting" line on the tables means that its a commitment line, you're much better off giving what for to the management team versus a dealer.