Did I play this one correctly?

[steamboatin]

Absolute Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) steamfish is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, steamfish calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">steamfish bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">steamfish 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">steamfish bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7BB, 2 players)
steamfish checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets</font>, steamfish calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9BB

He showed me a wheel and scooped.

[franknagaijr]

The worst you could be facing on the flop is an outside draw, and anybody holding A2 with an emergency low might stick around for one small bet, but certainly not a three bet. Wouldn't a flat call to draw in more low-hunters and a raise on the turn make more sense?

[neverforgetlol]

low hunters still have a decent draw against you, you want to win this pot on the flop.

[Buzz]

steamboatin -

1st betting round:
You complete with a marginal starting hand in the small blind. Fine.

2nd betting round:
You flop a set of queens and bet. Fine.

Then UTG+1 raises and when the action gets around to you again, you find yourself heads-up with UTG+1. At this point I would not make it three bets. (I don't see any point in making it three bets - because I can't imagine UTG+1 folding for another small bet).

"What cards might UTG+1 hold to raise my flop bet?" That's what I'd be wondering.

And then I'd just call the UTG+1's raise. I think you're the under-dog in a heads up contest with a hand that limps before the flop and then raises your flop bet.

Whatever cards UTG+1 does hold, you're not going to blow him away with your re-raise.

3rd betting round:
I go into check/call mode and hope for a free card. Ten cards pair the board and a non-spade king gives you a Broadway. that's 13 cards that are good for you on the river, while you can't much like any of the 31 other cards, although some of them do minimul damage.

However, I don't think your 3rd round bet is terrible.

4th betting round:
You had some bad luck here. An ace is the worst possible river card for you.

You check in case UTG+1 has the wheel or the Broadway - and then you call UTG+1 in case he doesn't.

That's perfect, holding the damage to a minimum. Well played on the fourth betting round!

Mainly I think you generally do better with top flopped set (and nothing much else) if you back off when your second round bet gets raised.

Good on the fisrt betting round, good on the last betting round. Too aggressive with a high only hand and no good read on your opponent on the second and third betting rounds.

You asked.

Buzz

[4ever]

[ QUOTE ]
3rd betting round:
I go into check/call mode and hope for a free card. Ten cards pair the board and a non-spade king gives you a Broadway. that's 13 cards that are good for you on the river, while you can't much like any of the 31 other cards, although some of them do minimul damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3rd betting round:
I go into check/call mode and hope for a free card. Ten cards pair the board and a non-spade king gives you a Broadway. that's 13 cards that are good for you on the river, while you can't much like any of the 31 other cards, although some of them do minimul damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. You have most hands crushed here, and almost all hands beat, so you put fresh money in the pot. It's not like you can fold the river for a single bet anyway. I could understand a check raise but a check call doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Why c/c with the nuts? I understand checking if you're going for a c/r after putting him on a low draw, but I don't understand check calling to get a free card when you have the "turn nuts."

[/ QUOTE ]4ever - I understand you're disagreeing with me, but you've asked a very good question.

And this is the thing about limit-Omaha-8. Unless you have the stone cold unbeatable nuts, it's not over until the river. You cannot protect a flopped set when someone raises your flop bet.

If you could make a pot sized raise, maybe you could protect your flopped set against some draws, but it's going to usually come down to whether a straight or flush in the hands of your opponent will win or your full house or quads will win.

In this particular case there are two wheel cards on the flop. With four high cards in Hero's hand, low is very likely. Somebody with the nut low, or even just two non-paired cards in the two to six or ace to five range is close to free-rolling Hero.

What kind of a hand is worth a raise here? (Hero already has top set, so Villain can't have that). Think about it. It's very scary. I actually chose a couple of what I thought were logical hands for the raise and simulated. Hero was a big underdog. Having no low draw after this flop is a big disadvantage.

At any rate, back to your excellent question: You can flop the nuts in Omaha-8 and still be the underdog. And although Hero can't know it for certain while he's playing the hand, because he cannot see Villain's cards, I think Hero probably is the underdog to someone who raises him after this particular flop.

That's part of the irony of Omaha-8. You can flop the nuts and still be the under-dog. Happens all the time!

Buzz

[piocet]

Buzz, why do you think AQQJ is a marginal hand? Given the situation, unraised pot and 4 players to the flop, I think complete is a no-brainer.

On the flop, hero is underdog against A45, but I wouldn't put UTG+1 on that just because he raised. Not yet.

I would definately continue betting when the safe turn card hit. And you are ahead of anything but A45 and a broadway card(J/Q/K) and a flush draw.

Not much you can do on the river. c/c and pray for half of the pot.

[steamboatin]

Never worry about hurting my feelings, I am a big boy and if I ask for feedback, I can take it with no hard feelings at all.

My thought was I am in the lead either set over set or set over draw. I wanted to charge him to draw.(is this a holdem hangover that needs work?) His raise folded out the other player (If I remember correctly) so my three bet didn't chase any low draws away (as if it would in this game).

I have played 220 hands against villian. He is VPIP 27.7% preflop raise 3.18% and is 4.16 BB/100 winner over that 220 hands.

[bbartlog]

Agree about not 3-betting the flop. But check/calling the turn seems like a mistake. It's true that there are a lot of scary cards, but assuming that our opponent is holding A456 suited in spades seems a little paranoid (we can be quite sure he has a non-spade ace in his hand, so two of his other three cards would have to be spades). I would regard any high card and any board pairing as safe for us, with sevens and eights still allowing us to split. That's 21 scoop cards for us and eight more that split; opponent has more like a dozen scoop outs. Of course he could have the spades, but he could also have A334 or some similar hand that we're in much better shape against.