I dont know how to play mid pairs

[cbloom]

OOP when I'm not the PFR vs. a TAG. [censored], what do I do !?

No Limit Hold'em Ring Game (6 max) , 6 players
Blinds : $1/$2

Stacks:
UTG : $397.95
MP : $446.95
CO : $345.80
Button : $415.10
SB : $200
Hero : $266.85

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG limps, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $11</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($34, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets $25</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($84, 2 players)
Hero ????


Better flop action?

I don't like reraising preflop cuz it basically turns my hand into a bluff, though maybe that's not so bad. Same thing for check-raising the flop. If I get called I'm in a sick spot on the turn where I don't know if I'm beat or up against a draw.

[sdfsdf]

lead flop lead turn

[cbloom]

Mmm.. leading flop has to be wrong, I think.

Villain cbets almost 100% of the time so c-c flop gets him to put money in with a lot of hands he would just fold on the flop.

If I lead on the flop he'll raise sometimes with flush draws and hands like AKo and I have to fold to that, which is good for him.

If I lead on the flop he'll just fold things like 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] which are drawing nearly dead and would've cbet.

He will fold things like KQo which are drawing live, but he's incorrect to put money in with those so it's +EV to keep him in with those with a c-c.

So I don't see how leading the flop is good.

Leading the turn I can see definitely might be the best option there but it still kinda sucks.

[royalsu]

Leading the flop is fine if you're willing to play this hand for stacks and if you sometimes smooth call AA KK preflop and he's seen you do it.
Otherwise, it's obvious you either have an overpair smaller than JJ or a flush draw (assuming your preflop rr range is tight). Since there is a limper in this hand, it is very very likely that this is a position raise which increases villain's range. I've done this with anything from 56 unsuited, KT suited, Ax-suited, depending on my mood. But, with 2 callers, I'm only betting that flop with any pair or a flush/gut/straight draw. A turn check is therefore suicidal for you, since if I had a flush/straight draw, I may check that turn fearing the check raise. Then if a scare card hits, you're forced to make a pot sized tough call on the river, or worse, a raise.

As played, you HAVE to lead the turn...but your best option is a check check or check fold.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
Leading the flop is fine if you're willing to play this hand for stacks and if you sometimes smooth call AA KK preflop and he's seen you do it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Explain to me why you want to play for stacks versus an opponent who often puts you on KK+, and apparently can beat that?

Also, leading means we lose tons of value from all the hands that villain will bluff with. I'm not in the camp of people who say "worse hands never call" because a button raiser has all kinds of hands that my have picked up a draw, or he might float with overs, or he might call with 88 because he beats a lot of donkhands that would bet here.

But checking certianly makes a ton more $$ than betting because Villain will bet around 99% of his hands, but only call with about 10-20% of them.

So I would probably never lead this flop, except perhaps with A4 or 33, because I probably can't stack him without getting him to raise one street.

Note that I'm talking about the preflop call scenario.

I would re-raise preflop. Many of you are too hung up about how often you win at showdown unimproved. Not every hands value is dictated by when you win at showdown.

For example, with AK (or AQs or even worse) we might 3-bet here, but we don't actually expect to win at showdown unimproved vs. a worse Ace. Nevertheless, you DO get calls, and you DO win value from worse aces. And you get MORE value (when you don't improve) vs. those hands by re-raising preflop and/or by winning the pot on the flop.

The same is true with TT vs. AQ, or say, 88.

Yes, if they call bets on 3 streets, you probably aren't good. But the simple fact of the matter is that there are many, many, MANY overcard hands that have significant equity vs. TT that will fold the flop if we re-raise, and that is a GOOD thing. It is a better thing than giving those same hands 5 cards to outdraw us (which they'll virtually always get if you play the hand for value), because calling a flop PSB, you've put in the same amount of money as if you'd RR preflop, but in this scenario the player in position will often see 5 cards for that price, or will double-barrel a draw and make us fold.

So, two scenarios involving roughly the same size pot:

1) RR preflop
2) call preflop, c/c PSB

But in senario 2) we will win a lot less often. And let's not forget the fact that re-raising will put us heads-up most of the time, where our equity is far better than in a 3-way pot.

A further reason to RR is that sometimes the other player gets stubborn with hands like 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and thinks he can call for implied odds. You are crushing hands like this, and getting them to call is a good thing.

[Kilillan]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like reraising preflop cuz it basically turns my hand into a bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people say that with tens? Where do you get this from?
The button raised and you're in the BB, RERAISE THAT [censored].

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

The button raised and you're in the BB, RERAISE THAT [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, okay, maybe. Why? What would you do on a flop like this? Why should I reraise with TT rather than 22?

[Kilillan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The button raised and you're in the BB, RERAISE THAT [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, okay, maybe. Why? What would you do on a flop like this? Why should I reraise with TT rather than 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

because TT is most likely the best hand, it's for value, and there're lots of overcards for your ten.

It depends on how tight button is and UTG is. But I would almost never smooth call with tens in that spot.

I would also reraise 77+ ATs+ as a default

and I would lead the flop if I had reraised preflop, obviously

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

because TT is most likely the best hand, it's for value, and there're lots of overcards for your ten.

(...)

and I would lead the flop if I had reraised preflop, obviously

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I actually want to learn here because I see winning players reraise TT and use this thought process and I don't get it. Raising "for value" only really matters when you can get to showdown. If villain will fold any worse hand, then betting for "value" does not exist and you're just bluffing. I don't think you can show down TT unimproved OOP very often and win a reraised pot, though you will once in a while.

Say you reraise preflop, cbet the flop and villain calls. The turn is the offsuit K. Now what?

[Kilillan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

because TT is most likely the best hand, it's for value, and there're lots of overcards for your ten.

(...)

and I would lead the flop if I had reraised preflop, obviously

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I actually want to learn here because I see winning players reraise TT and use this thought process and I don't get it. Raising "for value" only really matters when you can get to showdown. If villain will fold any worse hand, then betting for "value" does not exist and you're just bluffing. I don't think you can show down TT unimproved OOP very often and win a reraised pot, though you will once in a while.

Say you reraise preflop, cbet the flop and villain calls. The turn is the offsuit K. Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, if people are only calling you with hands that're JJ+ then you're not reraising nearly enough. A lot of players don't 3-bet enough preflop, mostly with only QQ, KK, AA and AK, making their reraises very transparent.

I get routinely called by hands like QKs or any pair.

And if I get called on flop and turn comes a king, I may bet again or checkraise allin. It's very opponent dependent, like any situation in poker.