Suckers play?

[RocketPiquette]

Limit .50/1
Hero is BB (6c3d)
3 folds, MP2 calls, CO(post BB) checks, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero checks.

FLOP [board cards 8C,JS,6S ]
SB fold, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

TURN [board cards 8C,JS,6S,8H ]
Hero checks, MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

RIVER [board cards 8C,JS,6S,8H,KD ]
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

On the turn, with the board pairing, I thought there was a reasonable chance nobody had an 8, and that therefore I was ahead. I could have lead the turn. I evaluated to more than 50% the chance my opponent was bluffing in this spot, or betting for what he thinks is value. That's why I called down. Any comment?

[milesdyson]

this could be expertly played (but it wasnt because you have no read)

you should be betting the turn

[shadeball]

i would need some good reads to make this play

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I evaluated to more than 50% the chance my opponent was bluffing in this spot, or betting for what he thinks is value. That's why I called down. Any comment?

[/ QUOTE ]

The stuff in bold makes no sense.

[driverseati]

What kind of reads do you have to determine the chance he's bluffing. Without any solid read here's the most likely scenarios:

1. You're slightly ahead and hold, and win the pot
2. You're slightly ahead and he draws out, and you pay him off on the river, and lose the pot.
3. You're way behind, and either will draw out or not, and lose or win the pot based on that for an extra two BB (win or lose, and then there's the rake)

Due to the oppressive rake, you gotta fold.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

your getting ~1.2BB off him when you snap off the bluff

your losing ~1.8BB when behind....

consider this

and fold

young padawan

[lautzutao]

With top pair being checked around, and the board pairing, you should probably be betting this turn. Simply toss the hand away to a raise, but more than likely you're ahead here.

[OrianasDaad]

Calling down marginal hands in small pots has been rather well established as a leak.

If you think that this is the type of player that even considers the concept of betting for value, then calling down is probably a mistake. Generally, these are tight players, and most tight players won't bet A-high on the turn and river as a bluff.

It all comes down to your reads on the players. I will mention that my notes on you quickly include the fact that you called down bottom pair with no kicker out of position in a tiny pot vs. [insert type] of player heads-up. This type of note is a staple in many of my loose-passive opponents, and typically doesn't show up in my notes for better players.

[RocketPiquette]

Vilain showed Ad5c for a stone cold bluff, and my pair was good. But you guys are probably right, as I should have lead, which is what I usually do.

As for the one who would tag me loose passive here, I am 14.5/7.5(I can't find my agression factor (I am new to PT)) over my first 2500 hands.

[OrianasDaad]

I got to thinking last night more about this hand. In fact, I couldn't get to sleep. Here's what I came up with.

Let's assume that you are, in fact 50% to have the best hand on the turn. What are your chances of retaining at least that much equity against his range on the river?

Not so good, as we will see.

Villian could have up to seventeen outs to improve to a better hand on the river! This is when he has a flush draw + overcards. He would have eight flush outs (the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] gives you a boat), six overcard outs, and three jacks that counterfeit your hand.

If he's only got two overcards, then that's nine outs.
One overcard is still six outs.

So, if he's got a worse hand on the flop then:
FD + OC, 17 outs: 36% chance to improve, 86% chance you are beat on river.
OC, 9 outs: 19.5% chance to improve, 70% chance you are beat on river.
One OC, 6 outs: 13% chance to improve, 63% chance you are beat on river.

Only in the last scenario are you OK putting two bets in on the turn and river to win four, heads-up. You'll see at least two overcards here most of the time.

Now, when you are behind 50% of the time, you usually have only two outs to improve, which improve your chances of having the best hand when you are behind by a measly 4%.

An opponent who will fire the turn and river on a pure bluff or "bad value bet" as you describe it, is not a description of a normal player. When your hand does hold up, you frequently will only win one bet from your opponent, and he'll make you pay two when you are behind much more often. Position, Position, Position.

It's easy to see here that being ahead 50% of the time on the turn doesn't mean you will be ahead 50% of the time on the river.

Naturally, when a jack hits on the river you pretty much have to fold or bluff. When the flush card comes, you have to make another tough read. If he spikes an overcard, you have no information with which to make a decision.

I'm happy to see that he was indeed bluffing, but make sure that you don't reinforce bad habits with good results. Remember that the results don't matter, as long as you are always making the correct decision.